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| 329 | 5ba8cf49ed | Montaigne's quote | In Montaigne’s essay he quotes, “On the loftiest of the world's thrones we still are sitting on our own Bottom." It’s a humorous quote because it is so blunt yet so true to life. A throne is something that belongs to a king or a queen, but the purpose of a throne is to sit. No matter how great or powerful or lofty the throne is, the simple matter is that you’re still sitting and therefore not as powerful because you are not standing higher than the rest. By “sitting on our own bottom”, Montaigne means that no matter what level of power we achieve we are still tied to our roots, our body and our circumstances, that power and loftiness can’t break through. Montaigne’s quote can be explained by looking at the character Bottom in a “Midsummer Nights Dream.”
Bottom is like every man, he is a weaver, and he is inarticulate. But his role in the play is opposite. He plays Pyramus “a lover who kills himself most gallant for love.” Onstage Bottom is on a lofty throne as Pyramus, but once play practice is over he’s still the same bottom of the wrung weaver just an everyday person like you and me. Onstage his life is so dramatic, he kills himself for love, which can also be a lofty throne. But he can’t be on that lofty throne without still being on his bottom because the love experience he has is in a dream and he can’t even understand it.
Therefore, Bottom is given a chance to rise onto a high throne, but he cannot escape the natural person that he is. |
330 | 23107a0d10 | quote of Montaigne | I believe that Montaigne is in his quote “On the loftiest of the world’s thrones we still are sitting on our own Bottom”, he is saying that no matter how high we are able to rise or how many fortunes we can obtain, we are still the same person we were before. You can not be something that you are not.
In act 3, scene 1, Bottom the weaver explains that Pyramus is not killed and that he is not really Pyramus.
Bottom: Not a whit! I have a device to make all well. Write me a prologue, and let the prologue seem to say we will do no harm with our swords, and that Pyramus is not killed indeed. And, for the more better assurance, tell them that I, Pyramus, am not Pyramus, but Bottom the weaver. This will put them out of fear.
It is like Bottom thinks that he is so good, that he can make the audience believe that he is Pyramus. But needs to make sure that they know that he is not. | 333 | c1b361938a | Montaigne Essay | I believe that the comparison of Montaigne line, to Bottom the weaver is that no matter what status you hold in the world of kings and queens, it only matters how well you present yourself. Regardless of Bottom being of lower stature he still believes he can contend with kings and queens. Being an actor I think sometimes he gets confused with reality and fiction. Or maybe that is the way he is. With relation to A midsummers night dream in act 5 scene1 Bottom corrects the dukes comments about the wall; No, in truth sir, he should not. " Decieving me" is thisbes cue. She is to enter no, and I am to spy her through the wall. You should see it will fall pat as I told you. In my opinion somebody in bottoms stature sould not have tried to correct the duke, but being bottom the weaver he did so in a manner that he is quite content sitting on the his own bottom. As for the Duke he propably felt as inferior as Bottom does most of his days. | 334 | fbe30d14d4 | Montaigne's Quote | The first scene that Bottom appears in portrays him as a self appointed leader, He directs Quince on how he should proceed in assigning parts to each of the men. Even though Bottom isn't sitting on the "loftiest of thrones", he acts as if he is king of the acting troupe. He also always wants more, he's not satisfied with only playing the leading part, but wants to play every other part also, like he's a one man show. If you searched history books from beginning to present time you would find numerous people of power who were and are the same way. Always wanting more, more land, more people to rule over, Napoleon wanted to rule the whole world. I think what Montaigne was saying in this quote is no matter who you are, what your posititon is we are all made from the same mold. No matter how we dress, speak or act we are all fallible human beings. Don't be arrogant in thinking you are better than the next person, even if you are a king sitting high on your throne. Don't be like Bottom when he said, "Take Pains. Be perfit." I laughed when I looked to the meaning of that phrase. How can anyone expect of someone else what they themself do not do? | 335 | c5a27117ef | montaigne's Quote | I believe, Montaigne was getting at the fact that we are all the same carbon based life forms regardless of wheather we are kings, or simply the average Joe, such as Bottom the weaver. Bottom, for instance, was very low on the food chain in this "A Midsummer Night's Dream". Yet he ends up not only shacking up with Titania the fairy queen, but also performing for Theseus Duke of Athens. The difference between these people of different social class is really less significant then one might think. We all desire the same things such as love, power and respect to name a few. Bottom showed this when he wished to play every part in the play and get all the glory. These same desires you see in all the characters, whether they wan't love like the young lovers, or power like Egeus. | 336 | a91eb2e907 | Montaigne quote | Montaigne said, "On the loftiest of the world's thrones we still are sitting on our own Bottom." Sometimes we have to remind ourselves that even those in the most expensive shoes are still walking on their own two feet, even those in the newest designer clothes are human, and even those who drive the fanciest cars are still sitting on their own bottoms. No matter how high their status, intelligence, wealth or personal pride, they are not a different species, nor a god. They are still like us.
Bottom the weaver, no doubt with a wink and a grin, issues cascades of his possibilities in acting. He asks to play nearly every character, and boasts and brags about how well he might play them. Yet at the same time, he makes several errors of speech.
In Act 1, Scene 2, lines 78-80, he claims that he would "aggravate" his voice so as to roar "as gently as any sucking dove." In that line he made two mistakes, mistakenly using "aggravate" where he should have said "moderate" or a word of similar meaning, and also confusing "sucking lamb" and "sitting dove".
It would seem that no matter how lofty a man's pride, he should be reminded that he is naught but a mortal man. The weaver places himself on a pedastal, but he is still sitting on his own Bottom. [/size][/size] | 337 | 58eac06fcc | Quote Analysis | Montaigne said, "On the loftiest of the world's thrones we still are sitting on our own Bottom."
I think that this quotw can be taken and read in 2 very different ways. It can be taken and read into its true context; a throne since Shakespeare's plays where based on royal characters, and then the quote can also be taken on a more deeper level.
I think that this quotes shows and tells us that no matter how much cushion one might have, that their true feelings and hidden agendas will really shine through.
While people try to hide begind thier, wealth, clothes etc. ones true characteristics shine through at thier most vulnerable times. Everyone has a hidden side. Most of the time a person feels most vulnerable when they are in trouble or something that used to be consistant in thier life was changed.
Example: when his face was turned into an "ass" | 338 | 985888fce5 | Mintaigne's quote | According to Montaigne’s quote, “On the loftiest of the world’s thrones we still are sitting on our own Bottom,” from the poorest of men, to the richest of men, humans are innately lazy. Bottom the weaver shows his desire to work hard through his requests to play every character in the play of “Pyramus and Thisbe.” However, in act III, scene 1, when Titania wakes up to fall in love with the donkey-headed Bottom, she gives him her fairies as servants. As with any normal human being, Bottom could not resist taking full advantage of the fairies’ work while he simply sat on his bottom. | 339 | ed0b4b8e6f | Montaigne Quote | All Montaigne is saying is your social stature does not affect your fate. He is trying to point out that we as people are all equals regardless of what achieve in life. Even though we can change what we do in life, we cant change who we are. Bottoms character in [i:ed0b4b8e6f]A midnight summers dream[/i:ed0b4b8e6f], to me seems like he has the qualities of a leader, buts puts his own personal wants and needs before others. He seems like if he were to be leader that he would be more of a tyrant. I get this from Act four scene one when bottom orders Titanias faries to get the honey-sac for him. He takes advantage of the situation, and even though he has acquired the liking of Titania, he is still the same old Bottom that he has always been.
-I had a tough time with this one so if it seems a little weird I apologize. | 340 | ea2929c571 | Quote | Taking the quote out of context, we can take it in the literal, bottom, being our actual gluteus maximus, we all share the same behind regardless of who we are. Kings, peasants, royals, slaves, soldiers, there is a common bond between us. Our basic genetic make up, such as our skin, eyes, and yes, even bottoms. Now, what Montaigne is stating in his quote isn’t that far off from the literal. We just need to define what Bottom is in the sense of people. Bottom, the protagonist as I see it, represents the connection between reality and fantasy for humans. In the show, he is the only character to consciously make contact with the fairy world and interact with them. He plays out the fantasy of being waited on hand and foot and looked at like a god by the fairies. He tries to be humble about it with his first contact, but later on in the show he takes full advantage of his status, making requests from the fairies. Hence making him the protagonist and the most important human character in play. So, when Montaigne states, “on the loftiest of the world's thrones we still are sitting on our own Bottom,” he is meaning that at whatever status we are, we continue to live life with the idea that there is something better out there and our imagination will tell us what we would do if we where in that position. | 341 | 86031b104b | Montaigne | I think that Montaignes meaning was that whether you wear silk or scraps, drink water or wine, everybody, (excuse my language) still has to wipe their own ass. Everyone gets sick, everyone gets confused. No matter what possesions one owns or people they know, everyone is created the same. Just like the saying, " You are unique... Just like EVERYONE else".
The bottom is not the prettiest body part, but everyone does have to sit on theirs. No one gets to sit on their stomach or their head because they are not created better than anyone else. We are created equally I think to keep us all level headed.
Bottom wanted to make the play so much better by adding himself into all of the parts, however, in the end, the play was a disaster. So no matter what you think of yourself. others may see you in a different light. Just because you think you will do something the right way, doesnt mean there are others who could do just as well, if not better. No one is made the best. | 343 | ccef47ca41 | Montaigne's Quote | In regards to the quote from Montaigne, "On the loftiest of the world's thrones we still are sitting on our own bottom", I felt a strong sense of synicism. I feel that he is basicaly telling us that each and every one of us has a bottom, even the kings of the world. He is bringing the "gods" to our level, making them human and even equal to us, stating that no matter what social class we are in we all have the same worth. I also appreciate the fact that he says "we" and "our" and does not ommit himself. This point of view brings me to think of a specific instance in [i:ccef47ca41]A Midsummer Nights Dream[/i:ccef47ca41]. This quote comes from act III scene 1 when Bottom and crew head to a spot in the forrest where they are to reherse their play, "Not a whit; I have a...this will put them out of fear". Here I believe Bottom is considering himself much higher than the rest, for he chooses to rewrite the play, not just his part but the parts of the rest as well. Here he is sitting on his throne and allowing himself to control others like a king on his throne, yet he is just a simple man without this play. Just like a king without his throne is just a simple man, with a bottom.[/quote][/i] | 344 | 336ae1d7ff | Montaigne's quote | In Montaigne's quote, "On the loftiest of the world's thrones we still are sitting on our own Bottom." I believe he means that no matter how rich, powerfull or important we are in life, we are still only just human beings, all the same genetically and physically alike. We all share the same inherent natures, wishes, feelings and desires. He's saying that even as we are (or [i:336ae1d7ff]become[/i:336ae1d7ff] as Bottom did) Kings, Queens, or rulers on a throne taller than the sky high above the world, we are still just sitting on our own darn bottoms. Bottom has had the experinece of seemingly being on that lofty throne, treated like a god by the Queen fairy Tatania, but when Tatania finds out her mistake, he is thrown swiftly and abruptly back into his own world as a simple weaver. He was playing the part of the one who is on that high throne, but in reality was really just old Bottom. Bottom's desire to be on [i:336ae1d7ff]that[/i:336ae1d7ff] throne shows through in the play when they are deciding parts Bottom tries to add himself to every part in the play believing that he would be best at it. This shows through when he is given the part of Pyramus and he says, "That will ask some tears in the true performing of it. If I do it, let the audiance look to their eyes. I will move storms..." and also when Snug is given the lion's part Bottom says, "Let me play the lion's part too. I will roar that I will do any man's heart good to hear me. I will roar that I will make the Duke say 'let him roar again. Let him roar again!'" | 345 | cc25b5221b | Re: Montaigne's quote | [quote:cc25b5221b="Desiree"]In Montaigne's quote, "On the loftiest of the world's thrones we still are sitting on our own Bottom." I believe he means that no matter how rich, powerfull or important we are in life, we are still only just human beings, all the same genetically and physically alike. We all share the same inherent natures, wishes, feelings and desires. He's saying that even as we are (or [i:cc25b5221b]become[/i:cc25b5221b] as Bottom did) Kings, Queens, or rulers on a throne taller than the sky high above the world, we are still just sitting on our own darn bottoms. Bottom has had the experinece of seemingly being on that lofty throne, treated like a god by the Queen fairy Tatania, but when Tatania finds out her mistake, he is thrown swiftly and abruptly back into his own world as a simple weaver.
yes--i think that this is the key here.....
He was playing the part of the one who is on that high throne, but in reality was really just old Bottom. Bottom's desire to be on [i:cc25b5221b]that[/i:cc25b5221b] throne shows through in the play when they are deciding parts Bottom tries to add himself to every part in the play believing that he would be best at it.
so really he thinks of himself as "everyman"
This shows through when he is given the part of Pyramus and he says, "That will ask some tears in the true performing of it. If I do it, let the audiance look to their eyes. I will move storms..." and also when Snug is given the lion's part Bottom says, "Let me play the lion's part too. I will roar that I will do any man's heart good to hear me. I will roar that I will make the Duke say 'let him roar again. Let him roar again!'"
yes--there is something about Bottom that gives us a sense of the
deep playfulness of humans....our desire to extend beyond ourselves.
anne
[/quote:cc25b5221b] | 346 | 3285fc1a3f | bottom | i do think that montaigne was being funny here,
don't you think? playing on the very fact that this
character's name is "bottom" and there is something
fundamental--in the sense of "getting to the bottom of
this"--in bottom. he is everyman, i think.
anne | 347 | d2db9b276a | Re: Montaigne | [quote:d2db9b276a="Iamdomino"]I think that Montaignes meaning was that whether you wear silk or scraps, drink water or wine, everybody, (excuse my language) still has to wipe their own ass.
well, i'm not sure he's as concerned about that aspect, but you're right in the sense that shakespeare himself was playing on this....
Everyone gets sick, everyone gets confused. No matter what possesions one owns or people they know, everyone is created the same. Just like the saying, " You are unique... Just like EVERYONE else".
yes, and i think that's what shakespeare means here, tool
The bottom is not the prettiest body part,
yes--although many songs have been written about this aspect of
the anatomy....
but everyone does have to sit on theirs. No one gets to sit on their stomach or their head because they are not created better than anyone else. We are created equally I think to keep us all level headed.
Bottom wanted to make the play so much better by adding himself into all of the parts, however, in the end, the play was a disaster. So no matter what you think of yourself. others may see you in a different light. Just because you think you will do something the right way, doesnt mean there are others who could do just as well, if not better. No one is made the best.
well, i think that this is true. but what do you think montaigne
is getting at reallY? how are you and i like "bottom" the character?
how is he like us?
anne[/quote:d2db9b276a] | 348 | 990cee3422 | Montaigne's Essay | Michael de Montaigne was an insightful man, who was equally critical of leadership and skeptical of those in positions of power. This disdain was well known, and in essence he believed that a person was the collective sum of their experiences; thus the essay, and further explaining his belief that those in positions of power, say a doctor for example, should have experienced every type of injury and illness they would treat, else they be ill equipped to provide proper care.
For all of Bottom’s imperfections, I would think you hard pressed to call him a bad person. He was just a simple man who had dreams and aspirations of being more than he was, and although he perceived himself this way (as was evident when he was the “star” of the show and wanted every part) often others did not.
Ervin Hoffman explained the sociological concept of Dramaturgy, which simply stated is defined to mean life is a stage, we all act out how we want the world to view us, and as such we are but a construct of how we want others to see us. The trouble is, how we want to be seen by others and how they truly see us are often very different…..and to that end, it is in fact often out of our hands; people base their beliefs on their realities not ours.
This truism can be seen through out societies (and plays) and applies to all people; from the beggar on the corner, to the executive in the corner office, and even from the actor in the troupe, to the king perched upon the throne. Fore, if as Montaigne thought, people are but the sum of their experiences, nobody would measure up to their constructed realities. So we must “act” our parts; some do well, others far from it, but when the day is done we are all still “sitting on our Bottom.” This is just what I think though, and in the words of Montaigne himself, “Que sais je?” (What do I know?) | 349 | 6cca29c084 | The throne that bottom's bottom sat on. | We are all the certer of our own universe, the most important person in our life. Some important people have more societal validation of their status than others but in the end no matter what level or tier you belong to you are only the most important person to yourself. People are, in most cases, willing to brake the rules that society places on them when it suits their emotional needs especially in reguards to love.
Bottom seemed to realize this aspect of love. In act 3, scene 1, line 144 Bottom Is innitially responding to Titania's love confession, "Methinks, mistress, you should have little reason for that. And yet, to say the truth, reason and love keep little company together nowadays." Bottom knows that Titania is quite some distance above him in the tier system but because of the complexities of love it is possible for him to believe her confession, despite how improbable it was. | 350 | 57836d66d3 | Montaigne | Montaigne's quote "On the loftiest of the world's thrones we still are sitting on our own Bottom" is saying no matter how high we are in life we are all still human. Bottom soared to the heights of the Gods and was loved by a Goddess but in the end he was still just a humble weaver barely able to comprehend what had happened to him. And yet he took it all in such great stride, being a common man he was use to the whim of fate quickly changing. Had he been a wealthier man he might not have take the fall from on high so well. Another thing to consider is how easily we can all begin to look like an ass when given a position of power. | 351 | 19fc1a6088 | keepin' it real, yo. | this quote functions two ways: montaigne observes that often the ego falsely elevates us, making us forget what is real (in bottom's case, bottom is consistently blinded by his own self-worth. we can interpret this as his fairy dream, or as his attempt to play every role). this quote can also be applied to "midsummer" because as every character drifts into a fairy tale land, they are again anchored to reality. similarly, the bottom is anchored to the throne; it's essentially a reality check. | 352 | c43f7363f6 | loftiest throne | nate,
i think you're right that the point when bottom
is the lofty lover who will kill for love is a high
point for him. at the same time he is "lofty" when
being wooed by a queen while being an ass. really
it's the fact that he's both in the position of an
ass--at the bottom, so to speak--while at the same
time being on the top of the world that makes him so
much an everyman,
a | 353 | 758cbce30c | | i think you're right, dave, that being an actor is
what brings about some of the worst--or funniest--
confusion. but i also think that shakespeare is winking
at us all with bottom's love story--or "lust" story--in
that we are all actors, and as he puts it, "all the world's
a stage."
anne | 354 | 80ef3e7631 | | i think that's an interesting quote--the use of the "prologue"
to make sure that the audience is not afraid. in some way,
he seems to be trying to protect the audience from the
possible tragedy in this comedic plot of pyramus and thisbe.
after all, it's really only funny because the mechanicals are
doing it, not because the plot itself is so funny.... | 355 | ce4955db3f | | interesting--but isn't it true once again that we are
all "bottoms" in this way, since we often expect of others
what we ourselves can't do! | 356 | 4b0206fa58 | | yes, i think you're right that we are all like bottom in
that we are as human as he is. we are also as prone to
being turned into an ass as he is, right? and as much
actors as he is, perhaps? as much lofty as we are low?
and as likely to be led astray by love as he is? | 357 | 351649d1d8 | | yes, i think that bottom places himself on
a pedastal--and then, of course, Titania does
the same for him. in the end, though, you're right,
he is just a weaver. and in my mind, he's a lot like
all of us in the audience--a little full of ourselves,
a little bemused by the world. | 358 | 5ca7e1e404 | | yes, i do think that there is a way that
bottom shows us that we are all there with
him--full of ourselves, and yet also shown
to be an "ass." | 359 | 5e14c42fd0 | | yes, i think that what is so comical
is that the gifts he gets from titania,
so to speak, are ones he didn't look for.
he wanted to be "everyman" on the stage,
he had a big idea of his own stage importance.
but never in a million years could he imagine that
the queen of the fairies would fall for him! | 360 | 3d56d9378a | | i think that the comical thing about bottom is
that when he is an ass, he still thinks of himself
as a human, and when he is beloved by the queen
of the fairies, he still thinks of himself as a weaver.
there is a steadiness to him, don't you think? | 361 | 8999cfd3c8 | | yes, i think bottom means:
foundation,
the root of things
the gluteus maximus
the lowest
the beginning
all of these things i think are meant by shakespeare,
and so i think montaigne. | 362 | 899da7d259 | | very interesting intertextual references!
so, if we are the sum of our experiences, then
what is the sum of bottom's? and thus, of our own?
we are full of ourselves, and then we are also an ass?
does this mean that bottom, more than any of us, knows
what it is to truly be unable to speak? does he know
stubbornness the way only an ass can?
in some ways, it seems that theatre itself is a kind of
antedote to the bind that hoffman is talking about: because
while we are all just acting our our own ideas, when we
come to the theatre we have a chance to see a common
"self" up there, one that is not really us, or ours, but rather
is one that is offered to us to view together. this is the magic
and importance of the theatre, i think--that it is not about
us--individually--but it IS about us collectivley... | 363 | badd027ecf | | i think that it is really interesting to think of
"midsummer" as a reality check! | 364 | c58a090202 | male female wall | I suppose you could say that the wall between Miranda and Ferdinand was brought down in the book and more than just in them getting to know each other. Before Miranda had met ferdinand, she had never seen another male like him, only her father. When she met him the wall between identifying other males and females came down. There was also a wall put up around miranda (by her father) that didn't allow her to met other males. Part of this was due to the fact that miranda was secluded on an island with her father. Yet, her father did not make it any easier for her to meet a male counterpart to possibly fall in love with. Even though it was all set up by her father for ferdinand to end up stranded on the island with her daughter. So then were the wall was between male and female- it came down!! | 365 | 3c0a989ff2 | wall in tempest | There is definately a wall between the class structure of the different characters. One is a king, anouther is a duke, several others are servents as well as family of a king or duke. However, once on the island some of them wanted to break down these walls. For instance Sebastian wanted to kill his brother and become king himself, and Stephano wanted to become king of the island. In the end Prospero regained his dukedom but everyone else stays in there position in society or recieved worse. | 366 | b8e6a045c2 | a love hate relationship | one wall is between ariel and prospero because over the course of their aquaintence they have grown fond of each other and probably became friends. the only problem is that ariel is prospero's indetured servant because he rescued ariel from a tree. this causes ariel to resent his master because he isnt free. prospero uses his power of him to keep him close in a way. i think he fears that if such a powerful creature wasnt bonded to him he'd be alone. they have a comroderie but it is mared by their servant/master relationship.
~Kellee | 367 | f28c6e7e02 | | wouldn't you say most of them faired worse then when they first hit the island save for maybe prosper, his daughter and ferdinand? | 368 | a7663836f2 | tempest | There are a couple of things that serve as a wall in between relationships of characters in the play the first being the ocean. Here is Prospero trapped on an island with his daughter and a slave almost completely cut off by the outside world. another would be the border between Prospero and his slave. she is very loyal to him and a good person but he dosn't treat her with much respect for being so good to him. i just look at the border between the king and his slave and wonder how the relationship would be different if prospero treated ariel more like an employee than a slave.
GarY ANdersoN | 369 | 4ea0c4820c | Wqll | One possible wall could be between Miranda and Ferdinand. That would be her father, but in actuality he wanted them to be together but they didn't know it. Another wall could be Ariel between Alonso and Ferdinand which also comes down in the end when the are reunited.Miranda and Ferdinand's wall was put up to ensure that ferdinand was a good man but also more importantly unrequited love grows stronger. | 370 | f4b4a347cd | hmm... | i think that although many of them didnt change their social positions they had a change in perspective.
kellee | 371 | d03e031ea5 | | i would say it was more then marred- i would say any chance of a relationship between the two was sort of lost and nill and gone because prospero still had not freed him | 372 | 5ebf5cc317 | Prospero = Wall? | The Wall in Midsummer is the hurdle that the two lovers in all Shakespeare plays must overcome. The best comparison is the "wall" in Romeo and Juliet which we will get to later. However, in the tempest, Prospero is the "wall" that stands between Miranda and Ferdinand. In Pyramus and Thisbe, the Wall generally represents the parents of families of the lovers. “oh wall that stands between her father’s ground and mine” and “oh wicked wall through whom I see no bliss” and so on. Right from the get go, Prospero has ill will towards Ferdinand when he arrives to the island. Prospero states “speak not your for him; he’s a traitor. –Come I’ll make a manacle thy neck and feet together” – pretty big wall if I may say so.
But, as all comedies, the lovers do end up overcoming the “wall” as we see in the Tempest when Prospero learns the true nature of Ferdinands feelings and takes him in as a son. | 373 | 9372fd35f5 | post for 10/17/2005 | In Class: Midsummer and Tempest
The Wall in the play-within-a-play "Pyramus and Thisbe" provides comedy in Midsummer Night's.... It also provides a metaphor for thinking about love between many of Shakespeare's characters. Describe a figurative "wall" in "The Tempest"--something that separates two characters. Talk about how it came to be there. How does it come down in the end (or does it?)
I think that the ocean was a metaphor for the wall. It separated Prospero and his brother Antonio. It also separated Miranda and Ferdinand.
Prospero was sent away with the help of his brother but he did not stop loving him. The ocean kept them apart for along time until Prospero was able to bring them back together.
Miranda was separated from everyone by the ocean. However she was able to find love once Ferdinad made his way to the island. | 374 | d6f8216300 | All we are is just another brick in the wall? | Long before the Pink Floyd album, Shakespeare was using "walls" to establish the seperation of characters, often in the arena of love. In The Tempest there was a "wall" that exists between Miranda and Ferdinand. The history of their fathers has created the wall, both literal in the physical seperation that has existed in their lives, and the more subtle feud between their fathers that I mentioned before. I think the relationship that develops between these two was unintended in the plan that Prospero spent his many years creating.....but alas, the best laid plans of mice and men.......
The proverbial turning of the other cheek by Prospero was directly related how his daughter fell in love with Ferdinand, and all characters in the play were affected because of it.
This is just what I think though, and after all "Que sais je?" (What do I know?) | 375 | 5a00c0f53c | y... | i am sorrq the "y" button on mq keqboard does not work- neither does the comma- so i have replaced the two with a "q" and a "-" this is reallq annoqing.
an example of a wall in "the tempest" is miranda's virginitq. naturallq there are phqsical connotations to a "wall" (use qour imagination) but figurativelq it sqmbolizes a boundarq which manq attempt to cross.
shakespeare uses this same metaphor again in "merchant of venice-" placing a wall between the jews and the venetians. this is what i appreciate most about his characters. nearlq everq character has this dual meaning- showing us that there's two sides to everq wall.
i am sure this point could be more powerful if i had a "q" button. i couldn't even use a q there. or there. | 376 | 26ac889d86 | | not necessarily- they still didn't want prospero to be in power- | 377 | 7cfed73c3e | A wall | The dukedom of milan is a wall between the two brothers, Perspero and Antonio. Antonio's need for power and wealth cause him to plot with the king and overthrow his brother as duke, and to cast Perspero and his daughter out to sea. This wall is broke down in the end by perspero and his magic, where he causes a ship, carring the conspiring Antonio and The King along with others and a trusted friend of perspero's, to sink and the passangers to be shipwrecked on his island. In the end he trade's The King's son for his dukedom back. | 378 | 849aa76cf2 | Figurative Wall | A Midsummer Night's Dream has two walls, one literally humorous wall in the play "Pyramus and Thisbe" and one figurative wall that signifies dilemas of love.
The Tempest has a figurative love wall as well, separating Miranda and Ferdinand. Miranda and Ferdinand fell in love the instand they lied eyes on eachother. However, Ferdinand's father was the enemy of Prospero, Miranda's father. Prospero turned Ferdinand into his slave, and forbade them from being together.
Once Prospero gets all of the characters under his contol, directly or inderectly, he can start bringing solutions to the story. He decideds to allow Ferdinand to marry Miranda, under a few restrictions. I think that he uses the wall to symbloze the relationship between him and his brother, Antonio. Once Miranda and Ferdinand are wed, all of the characters seem to put aside their differences and get along. | 379 | 5400b895fd | reply to love hate | I really like your insite on this, it was a perspective i hadn't thought of. If you are a servent of someone no matter how much you like then you are still there servent and will be to some digree bitter for it. This is definatelly a wall in the story that came down in the end. | 380 | 5126de6a92 | The wall that Prospero built | In this play Prospero has organized the meeting of Miranda and Ferdinand. He is aware that love grows greater if there is an element of hardship the lovers must endure before they can have peace. Prospero acts as an agent for this trial period. He makes Ferdinand go through the ringer in order to gain his support. I'm sure that these challenges were more for Ferdinand than Miranda. Miranda would have taken just about anyone with two legs who was human. | 381 | 7bb76ae500 | A "wall" in Tempest | Most of the characters in the Tempest are separated from at least some of the others, throughout a great deal of the play. Most of this is achieved through magic, performed by Prospero and Ariel (mostly performed by the latter, by order of the former). Ariel provides a "wall" that keeps Ferdinand apart from the rest of his group, and the Shipmaster and Boatswain and the crew apart from the action entirely until the very end. There are several different groups that travel around and think they are the only ones left alive after the Tempest, each group separated from the rest and never coming in contact with the others until Prospero wishes them to.
Prospero also puts a temporary wall up between Miranda and Ferdinand, pretending that he is not satisfied with the match and causing trouble to ensure their love will last. Eventually he also brings down the wall and gives them his blessing. Sounds like something my dad would do!! | 382 | c7d704a231 | | i wouldnt say their love was unrequited (great word by the way), it was more like it was seemingly doomed. they loved each other and knew it was mutual but the obstacle of miranda's father and his enslavement of ferdinand made their love similar to romeo and juliet.
~kellee | 383 | 45a2e08f5a | The tempest | The wall or obstacle would be between Ariel and Prospero. They are brothers but are seperated. They had conflicts throughout the play | 384 | 298eb939b6 | | don't we all wish we could overcome a wall?- it is interesting to see how even years ago shakespeare was putting into plays ideas and stuggles that we are still dealing with today? Although many of us are not isolated physically from people, we are often isolated by our parents, our surroundings, and our own actions. Yet, how many people are still out there able to someday overcome a wall and how many are left to stuggle with this wall they will never overcome. | 385 | 1cbb6bb3cb | | what influence do you think witnessing the love his daughter had first hand, when he was listening to them talk? | 386 | 8e0bbe19b9 | | I like this idea, class separation did not even cross my mind when I was reading this. It is also interesting because once on the Island, it is actually Prospero and Miranda who are best off...simply because they have adapted to the life style. | 387 | 4c6db43af4 | Prospero's true intentions | I thought that Prospero actually wanted the lovers to be together but was putting up a wall to make their love grow stronger? | 388 | ae4c25e37d | | Yes, Prospero does set up some pretty big walls between Miranda and Ferdinand, didn't he? How much of his disapproval do you think was real and how much just to make sure their love would last? He did mention that he approved far earlier than he made his approval known. Good post! | 389 | fa4445eaf6 | MONEY | Nice Floyd reference and Of Mice and Men. Good thoughts. | 390 | 1fcfc9d730 | Wall in The Tempest | In The Tempest, I see many walls being broken down by the end of the play. The one specific "wall" that influenced me most in my reading was the one between Miranda and Ferdinand. Growing up on the Island she had not really met any men besides her own father so when she meets Ferdinand it is a wall barier that she must understand to break down. Not only is he a man he is also his father's enemy's son. It ends when Alonso restores Prospero to the dukedom of Milan. | 391 | a6a6c996d5 | The wall | Probably the biggest wall issue that stands out is the love that Ferdinand and Miranda have for eachother. Prospero is very much in denial for his knowing of his daughters love for Ferdinand. I think his denial of the relationship is a very good example of a wall relationship. Prospero is just scared of her running off with ferdinand and not remembering everything he has done for her. At the same time he starts understanding she is growing up and entering a new dimension of her life. | 392 | c2b01a35b5 | Slaves in "The Tempest" | The vivid presence of slavery in "The Tempest" was interesting to me. Two of the most notable cases of slavery in this play are the enslavement of Caliban and of Ariel. In both cases, Prospero claims the enslavement is justified, but it is a matter of opinion.
In Caliban's case, it is said that Prospero and Miranda were friendly to him until he sought to "violate/The honor" of Miranda (I.ii.417-18). He was enslaved as punishment. But at the same time, he is looked at as less than human and deserving of such a fate.
Ariel, on the other hand, was already a slave to another, and was abandoned as punishment. When Prospero rescued him, he took him as his own slave and if ever Ariel complained, he threatened to lock him back in a tree.
Whether or not these enslavements are justified is a matter of opinion and is bound to change over time. We look at slavery now as a wicked act, but in the past it was, as we well know, seen very differently. Just what does the presence of slavery mean to the story? I am not sure, but it could have something to do with the fact that Prospero himself is enslaved.
At first glance he does not seem like a slave. In fact, he appears to be the freest character of all, as he has control over all the others. But in the epilogue he makes an interesting plea:
"Now 'tis true/I must be here confined by you,
Or sent to Naples. Let me not,
Since I have my dukedom got
And pardoned the deceiver, dwell
In this bare island by your spell,
But release me from my bands
With the help of your good hands."
.....
"As you from crimes would pardoned be,
Let your indulgence set me free."
Exactly what he means by this I will leave up for debate, but it seems as though he is a slave of the audience, and to their judgement. If we think he did right, we can set him free to return to Naples. But if we disagree with his actions, we can keep him trapped on the island forever. He is a slave to our very whims. | 393 | f1a0237ad1 | Slaves | To me the most obvious slave is Ariel. I believe because Prospero saved Ariel that ariel feels he owes him his life. Prospero in the other hand feels content in keeping ariel as his servant because that is the way he is. Caliban can also be considered a slave. Caliban is constantly pleasing and doing any task that Prospero puts upon him. I believe that Prospero may be a slave to his own thinking. Because of his life has been contained or secluded for more than a decade, he probably feels like a slave to his own life. His ambitions and rights where taken away so he feels imprisoned by his surroundings. | 394 | b9f8eaa1e8 | The Slavery in "The Tempest" | The two most obvious slaves are enslaved to Prospero. They are Ariel, a spirit servant and Caliban, an islander servant. They both do what they are commanded to do by Prospero. I also think that Miranda is willing to be a slave to Ferdinand if she is not able to become his bride.
I believe that Prospero is a slave to self justice. He seems to be set on getting even with his brother and the others who sent him away. All he wants is to read his books, get his dukedom back, and make his daughter happy. | 395 | 7c0e36548e | The subservient vassals on Tempest's island | Prospero had ultimately enslaved everybody on his island. From the people he had ship wreaked to Arial, Caliban, and even his daughter. Prospero was the omnipotent force so everyone in one way or another was under his control. It is easy to see Arial and Caliban's enslavement but on a deeper level I think Miranda's captivity is far worse. She has been under Prospero's control, and influence, her entire life. Unknowingly, Miranda had been raised to play a role in her father's revenge. At least Caliban and Arial understood the score. They had tasted freedom and knew what was at stake. Miranda will never know the score and will always be an ignorant slave to Prospero.
Prospero on the other hand, is a slave of his arrogance, the past, and in his belief of the divine right of noble blood. When he held his title of Duke he was more interested in the study of his books and blindly believed in the illusionary allegiance of his people. He cared little to nothing for the work of governing. To hear him tell the story you would think that his people stood outside his library and cheered him while he was in study. Prospero strikes me as the kind of person that believes people love and respect them for their proclaimed intelligence and the important title they hold, instead of for their actions and deeds. | 396 | 6bbeeed39d | slave | The most obvious slaves in the play are Ariel and Caliban. Both have been enslaved by Prospero to do all of his bidding. Ariel, who was once imprisoned in a tree as punishment from a previous owner, must now run about the island doing his magical, and not so magical, bidding. Caliban was enslaved by Prospero for wanting to violate his daughter and has been forced to do physical labor for Prospero since.
Prospero is enslaved to revenge to avenge how he was wronged when he was still the duke. His whole life from the moment he was placed upon the island has been planning and plotting revenge against those who did him wrong. He, while indirectly, has been saved to planning and extracting evenge. | 397 | caff813aa6 | All Equal | In regards to the question posted, i would like to point out the obvious wall between the group of shipwrecked characters. The deffinite wall is between pretty much all of them and their master servant, dog human relationship. The fact that the King of Naples is still trying to rule over everyone, even after the shipwreck, is actually pretty humorous. Alonso is yes, the king of Naples, yet they are not in Naples nor do they have much hope of returning. i, in fact, do not blame Adrian or Francisco for trying to take control of the situation. They are just trying to take down that wall of royalty which does not exist on this island. | 398 | 4c5255a9dd | Slavery | In this play there are so many areas of slavery to which i will only name a few. First there is Prospero's "ownership" over Ariel, as well as Caliban. Then there is the king's "slaves" Trinculo and Stephano. and in regards to Prospero's master; it is my opinion that he is a slave to his own madness. His feeling of revenge and hate towards the Duke has enslaved his actions, making him lash out at others especially his own slaves, demanding every action that they take revolve around the new arrivals to the island and the Duke. | 399 | | Slaves | In reading [i]The Tempest[/i] Shakespeare introduces us to Ariel and Caliban, who are the epitome of slavery. They are the most obvious slaves in this play. In the first reading I have much more sympathy for Ariel than Caliban because it seems on the surfice Caliban was lucky Prospero didn't kill him for trying to violate Miranda. But there is also references to slavery and colonialization that are not so obvious. In I ii 396-421 Caliban describes how he treated Prospero and Miranda kindly and showed them all the island had to offer and then Prospero enslaved him. A story that would ring true all around the world to all people those who enslaved and those who were enslaved. In this scene I wondered why Prospero didn't kill Caliban which got me thinking maybe there was more to the story. It hit me as I reread I ii 419-421 where Caliban told prospero if he hadn't stopped him he would have populated the whole island with Calibans. Why did some races enslave other races, well Caliban hit one of the probable answers right on the head. People were scared of differences, didn't want their son's or daughter's intermingling with those differences. Caliban tried to rape Miranda, what if this had happened off the island and it had been some well to do aristocrat, punishment yes, but certainly no enslaving. The question of what Prospero was a slave to a little harder. I think he was a slave to two things, magic and revenge. When he was Duke of Milan he was a slave to his magic, which in the end cost him his dukedom. Then while he was trapped on the island he was consumed with revenge, and amasing more magic to enact that revenge. [/i][/u] | 400 | 4871b27b53 | i'm a slave for you... | clearly ariel and caliban are slaves in the most conventional sense (as in, they do prospero's bidding without the option of quitting), but what is most interesting about their servitude is that they perpetuate it by being weaker individuals. caliban, for example, made the initial mistake of showing the island to prospero, afterwhich prospero could enslave him. he then made the same mistake over beer, offering to show the island once again for one more sip. this is ironic for two reasons: 1) it shows that this "monster" wants to please; he trusts, he tells, and he is made a fool. and 2) he makes himself a slave by offering what he has (the island).
ariel's servitude is filled with this same duality. his enslavement is caused by his weakness, both physically, and mentally. i pondered this for a little while after having watched the film in class, and it occured to me that (though his/her gender is left ambiguous), his feminine characteristic is subordinance. perhaps, if i know billy shakespeare correctly, this is not simply a parallel to caliban's vicious sexual carnivory, it is also a bold depiction of homosexuality. in truth, we don't know what ariel's gender is, but it is logical to assume, based on juxtaposing caliban, that he is a male with the weakness of a female. (i'm sorry ladies, i'm as offended as you that i said that... but consider the time era... with the exception of the queen... consider women as a whole...).
prospero, just as ariel and caliban, is a slave to his own weakness: revenge. he is governed by his own desires to seek what was once his, as well as cause harm to those that took it from his. he is only set free upon apologizing, and letting by-gones be by-gones.
word. | 401 | a18e2f3ff6 | Slaves | The Tempest is filled with slavery, the most of which are salves to Prospero. Caliban and Ariel are the most obvious servants.
We first learn that Ariel is a slave when Prospero states “Come away, servant, come. I am ready now. Approach, my Ariel. Come.” (I.ii.222-3) Prospero seems to trust Ariel as a slave more than he trusts Caliban, and uses him to carry out his plans of revenge. I think that this is perhaps, the only reason that Prospero keeps Ariel as a salve, because he promises to free him and soon as his task is accomplished.
Prospero’s control over Caliban on the other hand, displays more of the negative aspect of being a slave. Prospero does not trust Caliban, and for fair reasons. We encounter this negativity when Prospero says “Thou poisonous slave, got by the devil himself Upon thy wicked dam, come forth!”(I.ii.382-3). Prospero uses Caliban more for work and hand labor, than for assistance in his true goals.
Although Prospero seems to be the most powerful force on this Island, he is still enslaved. He is enslaved to his desire for revenge against his brother Antonio. It seems to be all that Prospero thinks about, and he goes out of his way in order to get what he wants. | 402 | 8860fa51ff | Slavery in The Tempest | The theme of slavery is almost seen throughout everything and every person in the play. From the most obvious Ariel and Caliban, but also in the shipwrecked, and even Miranda and Prospero in their own way. (Miranda in her captivity on the island and Prospero with his magic).
For Ariel, it is seen in act 4, scene 1, line 33, Prospero is talking to him and says, "What Ariel! My industrious servant, Ariel!". Prospero has taken Ariel as his servant because he had saved his life from the tree.
Caliban is a slave to more than just Prospero. Prospero has taken him slave after Caliban made moves on his daughter. But also in act 4, scene 1, lines 250-253, Stephano tells Caliban to carry something for him, or says he will be out of his kingdom and he says, "Monster lay-to your fingers; help to bear this away where my hogstead of wine is, or I'll turn you out of my kingdom.”
In act 4, scene 1, lines 262-265, Prospero is describing how all his enemies on the island are now shipwrecked, under his control and are enslaved to him. He says, "At this hour lies at my mercy all mine enemies. Shortly shall my labors end, and thou shalt have the air at freedom."
Ferdinand is also in service to Prospero for the time being, but I believe in the play he tries to make his labor more pleasant by seeing Miranda as his master. In act 3, lines 64-66 he says, “But this slavery is made tolerable by a different kind of slavery: “The very instant that I saw you did, My heart fly to your service; there resides, To make me slave to it”. I believe he accepts this slavery and at times even enjoys being a slave in the name of love.
When Ferdinand talks to Miranda, he also talks about his bondage and servitude in love that he has had with other women. Ferdinand imagines this love, in comparison to his love for Miranda, as an enforced servitude and he says in act 3, scene one, lines 39-42, “Full many a lady, I have eyed with the best regard, and many a time. Th’ harmony of their tongues hath into bondage, Brought my too diligent ear” And when she proposes, he even says that even if she did not want to marry him he would still be her servant. "Oh how romantic!" :wink: | 403 | 8eea0c4a0f | Slavery | Slavery has long been an idea and a practice of forcing others to do what you would not or could not do yourself.
In reading [u:8eea0c4a0f]The Tempest[/u:8eea0c4a0f] We clearly know that the 2 obvious slaves to Prospero are Ariel and Caliban. Ariel is forced to use his magic against his own will and Caliban is forced to do Prospero's hard labor, all Caliban wants is to be at peace in his island. Ariel is so weak mentally and physically, that Prospero can easily take advantage of him. It seems to me that Prospero is a slave to his own weakness because his weakness overpowers his strenghts. He needs Ariel and Caliban to do his "dirty work" for him. He is a good person but he sees his goodness as being a weakness because he got taken advantage of by his brother, and so that causes him to seek out that which he is not, namely evil by enslaving Ariel and Caliban. | 404 | e4b7891826 | To be a slave to more than a master....? | I think [i:e4b7891826]The Tempest[/i:e4b7891826] is rife with allusions to slavery, and there are many examples from which one can choose; but beyond actual servitude, people are also shown to be slaves to there own thoughts and desires. Prospero is the linchpin to the play, for it was his pursuit of knowledge that laid the foundation for everything to follow. “If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite,” according to William Blake.
Prospero says (Iii90-94)”And Prospero the prime duke, being so reputed in dignity, and for the liberal arts without a parallel. Those being all my study, the government I cast upon my brother and to my state grew stranger.” If Prospero had been less enamored with how he thought people felt about him and his pursuit of knowledge, and had been more in touch with his people, there would have been no exile to start with. His pursuit of knowledge is later replaced by a pursuit of vengeance, for after the exile he dreams of little else. Bishop George Berkeley perhaps summed it up best, “We have first raised a dust and then complain we cannot see.”
The thoughts of Caliban and Ariel too are indicative of their plight. They think not of themselves as anything but being servants to Prospero, and although they are shown to want more, they never act. The fear that they have of Prospero, in my opinion, is more of a weight than Prospero himself. The greatest motivator of people is fear or self-interest, and Prospero, being a leader, knows this. We can even see the combination of the two with Ariel when he is promised his freedom if he helps (Iii355-56) “Do so, and after three days I will discharge thee.” | 405 | 0a67be039c | Missed opportunities | Prospero had just shown his enemies that he was all powerfull. Why would he choose to forgive, rather than destroy the perps? I think that the reason he chose to forgive is because he would then have all of the people kissing up to him and singing his praises. This is what Prospero truely missed about his dukedom.
I think it was as big of a mistake for him to give his powers away as it was for him to ignore the business of his state. It seems that he truely believes in people doing the right thing if given the proper motivation. He is now respected for his magical powers not for his popularity. The moment he gave his powers up he once more became a target. I would be surprised if he even made it off the island. It is not like Antonio and the King want to answer the questions that are coming upon their return.
Prospero should have disposed of the perps and used his power to enslave the world. What egocentric person wouldn't. :twisted: | 406 | 1762a7b07b | A Leader | A leader should never forget that he is a human being just like his subjects, and should therefore go by the same rules. But he should also never forget that he has power over them. That power can get out of control if he lets it. What would he do if he was not the duke and therefore did not have the power to dispose of his enemies and get away with it? If he was just an ordinary man, murdering his foes would not be seen as just by the law. But forgiveness would be seen as given by someone powerful and great.
Forgiveness isn't easy, though in the long run it is probably easier than murder! That would have been simply getting rid of his problems, but this way he rose above them without stooping to their level. He acted kingly (dukely??). Though he obviously likes having control over his subjects (which is not surprising, rememebering what he went through after he gave up some of that power!!!) he remembers his true self in the end and finds forgiveness for all of them. I hope it works out for him! | 407 | 2c69b6d3de | Leader | I believe that prospero could be considered a tyrant type leader. His action were that of a person who was very self interested. even though he may have helped Miranda his ultimate goal was about himself. During the play alot of pushing and pulling of charaters by prospero was what brought me to that conclusion. Towards the end of the play though his actions to free his slaves was that of a leader. I believe he realized he could no longer control these people if he was going to live happy. | 408 | f46b9c76a1 | leader | There is no doubt Prospero had the opportunity to use his power to make a very Machiavellian style example of his enemies, as well as all their subjects, in order to insure his unquestioned rule forever. However, he did not do this. It is of my oppinion when you take into account human nature, this is what most people in his possition would have done. I am a furm believer in the phrase ultimate power corrupts ultimatelly. Therefor in my mind Prospero showed great restraint.
As far as what relationship a leader should have with his or her subjects, that would depend on whether you believe, as political theorist Thomas Hobbs did, that people are brutish and need to be controled. I would say there is a strong case for this argument in regards to Caliban. Or do you side with political theorist John Loche, that people are inherantly good and simply need a contract between them and the government or leader to get the job done. All in all I would have to say Prospero leaned more towards Hobbs in his leadership. | 409 | 68b209a7fd | Prospero's leadership in the end | Prospero’s forgiveness makes him a stronger person and leader. However, in the end all he wanted was to see his daughter get married, live happily ever after and then think about how his life would end. He no longer wanted to rule or lead. I think that it was important for him to forgive and not to have any enemies since the time was getting close for him to meet his maker | 410 | 07be3ec07a | Leader | A leader should have concern for his subjects, he should be striving for ways to improve life and help his subjects. In the beginning of the play we learn that Prospero didn't even have a thought concerning his subjects, only the pursuit of knowledge. This is the very reason that he no longer was the ruler of Milan. Then on the island we see a Prospero who is the polar oppisite, a ruler who gives his subjects no control. He rules over then,using his magic to force them to do his bidding. In the end it seems as if Prospero comes full circle, from a disengaged ruler who loses his dukedom, to a selfish man who uses all and everyone he can to achieve his desires. In the end Prospero gives up his magic, releases his "slaves" and forgives his enemies,all of which are selfless acts. In the end he is able return as Duke of Milan. Even though the play ends here, I believe his selfless acts at the end of the play show that he is a changed man, and will return a wise leader instead of a dictator or disinterested ruler. | 411 | fa5734df86 | Leader | A leader is someone you can trust and follow into any situation. He is someone who puts others before himself. In the beginning of the story, Prospero treats everyone like slaves. But towards the end he realizes that to get respect from others he has to learn to forgive. So he forgives Antonio and Caliban for trying to kill him. He also recognizes that Antonio is a traitor but refuses to call him one. Therefore, Prospero shows that he is a fair and just man. He also sets Ariel free after promising to him that he would do so. Therefore, he is trustworthy and true to his word. He shows that he is a good leader because he is trustworthy and looks out for others even when they don't look out for him. Forgiveness is hard to do but it takes a powerful man and leader to do so. | 412 | 9bacf5d539 | Leadership | It is very hard to tell whether or not Prospero is a good leader or a bad leader. At the very beginning he seems like a tyrant, controlling slaves, and creating storms to get what he wanted. He seemed to only have his desire of revenge on his mind, and seemed to not care about the well being of others. However, he was very good at obtaining what he wanted.
Towards the end of the play, Prospero’s leadership style changes. He knows that he is closer to getting revenge and it is time to make sure that everyone is happy. He seems to start thinking more of other people. He forgives his brother, and Caliban, and he let Ferdinand and Miranda get married.
Although he went through extreme measures to get what he wanted, in the end Prospero made sure that everyone was happy, and that is the most important aspect of being a leader. | 413 | b2e8d6b021 | Leading.... | I think that a true leader has the potential to be great or be horrible to the people he leads. The deciding factor is when the chance to take advantage of people becomes the easiest choice to not take.
Prospero, in the end, has the option to kill everyone. Infact he could have killed them on the ship in the very beginning. Prospero's choice to not take revenge, but to teach a lesson and forgive, proves that he infact knows how to lead. Good leaders choose what will be best in the longrun and not just what will make them feel better. | 414 | a27d7a54b2 | Forgiveness and leadership | In the beginning, Prospero causes the tempest out of revenge, but by the end, he decides to forgive the men. I think everyone’s forgiveness remains kind of unresolved by the end of the play, but Prospero believes that closure has been reached, even though Sebastian and Antonio never ask forgiveness or even show remorse. Alonso is sorry for what he has done, asking Prospero to "pardon me my wrongs", and he achieves some sort of reconciliation with Prospero. Prospero regains his dukedom and also his daughter is to be married to Ferdinand. However, in the epilogue I believe it is really interesting that Prospero goes and talks to the audience. He tells them that they are the ones who hold the power over his fate, and must finally forgive him for his deeds. It is the most intriguing ending to me and I loved it. It was like I was then becoming part of the story deciding what could come next.
I believe that by forgiving his enemies Prospero is able to know that he is not “controlling” them anymore. He wants them to respect him as leader by their own free will. I see a profound change in him towards the end of the play. It seems as though he hopes in his forgiveness in all that he has done to his enemies, the ones he has imprisoned in his own life such as Miranda, Caliban and Ariel will in turn forgive him, and then be able to start afresh in his return to milan as duke. | 415 | f1a6819584 | Setting Examples | Prospero's compassion for his enemies not only shows how good of morals and ethics he has, but it shows others that with power dosent consist of dominence. It has to do with compassion as well. Prospero's is showing a good example to all. I believe that Prospero dosent only show his mercy to his enemies just because he holds good ethics. I believe he know's what power is and what comes with power, and the ability to lead. Its kind of like that saying "Do unto others as you want dont to you". I believe Prospero is showing a good example of that. He has the ability to lead and he chooses to show mercy to his enemies, because he believes that people will show the same compassion as he did.-Monkey see, Monkey do. | 416 | 1e36d4f278 | baby, i'm a changed man | prospero's metamorphasis from a selfish leader, focusing only on his own knowledge, to a forgiving leader, able to devote himself to his job and not to revenge, allows him to be a better leader because he can focus on actually bettering milan and the people he represents. this will help him in two ways: 1) he will now shed the burden spite, and 2) if he properly represents milan, which he didn't do before, there will be no need to over throw him again. in the end, coming to grips with his inner turmoil will allow prospero to lead not by magic, not by force, not by vengence, but by being an understanding and caring leader. forgiveness is a rare and precious characteristic. | 417 | 0e4c9598c8 | wed. night meeting | if anyone has to miss monday's class (because of halloween), i will be at the library on wednesday night at 6:30 pm. consider it a mid-term study group... i'll even bring left over halloween candy.
please come, even if you made class but want to study a little more, you're totally welcome. if i'm the only person sitting in the library on wednesday, reading my billy boy alone, that's ok too. i'll just consider my relationship with all of you... irrepairably sundered. that's right, irrepairably.
i have to go pre-emptively cry a little bit. | 418 | c7e1b0f7b5 | If only more leaders could be so bad...... | The studies that Prospero engaged in were indicative of the time in which he lived. People were enamored with the “Classical Greek” history, and their own coming of age in the Renaissance. There was a rebirth of knowledge, and a new generation of those interested in its pursuit. What great calamities befell the citizens of Milan while Prospero sought enlightenment? Were there Barbarians at the cities gates? Was the city sacked; such as happened in Rome, Venice, Athens, or Constantinople? Were there great wars waged in the name of Prospero, who sought to expand his empire? Famous “leaders” Alexander the Great, the Caesar’s, and Charlemagne come to mind. What great works did he force his subjects to construct to immortalize or edify his power? Where was his Tower of Trajan, Ara Pacis (“Peace Alter” of Augustine), Arch of Titus, or Pantheon?
Even on the island, when he was exiled and forced to start a new life; he learned magic, and amassed power the likes of which none have ever seen. Did he force the subjects to do anything other than survive? Was the request of Caliban to fetch wood a cruel and inhuman request, as Caliban felt it was, or did it serve Caliban equally? What could you do to compel a person to work; a person who does not work even when it helps themselves? “Men make history, and not the other way around. In periods where there is no leadership, society stands still. Progress occurs when courageous, skillful leaders seize the opportunity to change things for the better.” according to Harry Truman. Is that not what Prospero did?
I wish to meet those that have never manipulated, or dare I say threatened, anyone in pursuit of their own goals; fore it would be a saintly group indeed. Prospero demonstrated his ability to lead, and though by the standards of today, he may not get elected, that was not the measure of a leader then. Relative too many of the leaders in historical context, Prospero was kind, measured, fair, steadfast and resilient. The role he assumed with his subjects was one of authority, and those around him became his servants. By virtue of title, there can only be one leader; name the society that had no leader, and I will show you an example of “history.”
Plato said it best, “Man…is a tame or civilized animal; never the less, he requires proper instruction and a fortunate nature, and then of all animals he becomes the most divine and most civilized; but if he be insufficiently or ill-educated he is the most savage of earthly creatures.” This rings true on the island too…… | 419 | 91dac9ee6b | Leadership meets in the middle | Excellent examples of philosophy and use a spectrum of leadership. Wouldn't you agree that perhaps the best leader would be a mixed version; possessing both skill sets, and the knowledge and understanding of human nature to know when they applied and which to use. The relationship Prospero has with Ariel is more of a covenant isn't it (Loche)? Would the same relationship Prospero employs with Ariel work with Caliban? Does it make Caliban a bad person that he isn't able to be governed by the principles of Hobbs in the same way Ariel can be? | 420 | 5bdb0bfb30 | Does leadership define men?....or vice versa? | The integrity of Prospero is unquestionable by the end of the play, and I agree he is going to be a better person for it. Will that make him any better leader? One of the most difficult parts of leading is making a decision that will impact peoples lives; the betterment of one over another....and invariably all leaders are forced to do so. Will Prospero still be able to do that? | 421 | 39ae89f055 | a tyrant by any other name...... | I wonder why Prospero is so vilified He isn't the best leader, and given the standards of today he is for want of compassion....but does that make him a poor leader? If you had to pick the penultimate leader, who would that be? I agree that Prospero could have been much better, but couldn't he too have been much worse?
Joseph Conrad said, "those who plot the destruction of others often perish in the attempt." Maybe Prospero realized that his vengeance would lead to ruin, and the irony is, those who sought to destroy him were in turn "destroyed." Conrad also said, "it is to the happy that tears are a luxury." I agree that making people happy is a measure of leadership, but is it the only measure we should use? | 422 | 91dac9ee6b | how many times can a leader forgive? | Forgiveness is a magnanimous gift indeed, and the ability to forgive is lost on many; but who can give forgiveness that has not already been wronged? Isn't forgiveness a reactive gesture done by a person after someone else has done something to wrong them, an act which follows another? Would a good leader allow him self to be put in a position where he continually forgave others; reacting, and not stopping the action in the first place? How many times would that happen before his people lost trust in him? Would other leaders begin to see that virtue as a weakness? The overthrow of leaders does not always come from within.....Alonso was not in fear until Antonio made the case. | 423 | 13dc0c5316 | kellee | well obviously caliban and ariel are slaves and are treated as such by their master prospero. caliban is even more of a slave because his bitterness and hatred of his master and his lot in life just forces him deeper. later when he encounters the drunks from the ship wreak, he sells himself even more into slavery to these men in exchange for the liquor they give him. hes not that bright. ariel on the other hand is a calm and paitent spirit and has hope of regaining his freedom. prospero in his own way is also a slave. his anger and resentment toward his brother and the king of napal causes him to enslave himself to his plots of revenge. he sees himself traped on the island rather than seeing the blessing of life and provision that it has given him and his daughter. | 424 | 45c62fb647 | kellee | i think a good leader would have the ability to guide and protect those under him. prospero saw his 'subjects' as toys or puppets that he could mold to his will. he saw himself not so much as a leader but as a god. while his 'rulings' and manipulation served their purpose, he realized that man is not a plaything and that he had no authority to toy with their minds and bodies. his magic gave him power but not authority. once he let go of his anger and need for revenge, which was why he dabbled in magic to begin with, he was able to help the wreak survivors and was acknowleged and apoligized to by his former enemies. | 425 | d1fe460318 | a bird in the hand, is worth two in the bush????? | Great leaders are subject to the same frailties as you and I; wanting something to happen doesn't make it so. Would a good leader give up the chance to know the outcome of events, and leave to chance that outcome for the hope of something better? I know Prospero seems to think so; or was it perhaps his plan all along to teach this lesson to those that wronged him.
Plato said, "Death is not the worst that can happen to men."
Perhaps living with what they had done could be a much worse fate than death.
Doesn't this show Prospero to be a much more intelligent leader than we perhaps give him credit for......we think of vengeance and equate that to death, he thinks of vengeance and equates it to the life after the punishment. | 426 | 519c771e0d | | Did Prospero not protect those on the island, giving shelter, knowledge, leadership, and direction? Was his pursuit of knowledge the real calamity, or was it the precursor to those great deeds yet to come? If Prospero truly saw himself as a god, would not the people be compelled then to worship him? What has he done to demonstrate his desire for edification? He is not perfect, and as such has human qualities both good and bad, but is he evil?
Joseph Conrad said, "The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary; men alone are quite capable of every wickedness."
Is not the pursuit of knowledge, and his education in the art of magic weren't evil in and of themselves, were they?
Tom Stoppard said of knowledge, "you can't have too much of it and there is no little too little to be worth having."
Did not the pursuit of knowledge lead beyond the immediate fall from grace, perhaps to a more elevated status upon his return?
[b:519c771e0d]Iamdomino[/b:519c771e0d] said leaders look beyond the immediate to the long-term benefit; isn't that perhaps what Prospero has done? Although we believe not, what evidence do we have? | 427 | 12d25199d1 | not so at first- | Prospero has an interesting leadership quality- He leads in a way that leaves no one to do anything contrarty to what he has planned. through the use of his magic and personality, his twelve years on the island still yield him to be in control of anything in his proximity. Yet he still leads by example by eventually giving up his magical powers towards the end of the play. He shows that even though the easiest route to take, which would be to seriously take advantage of the situation, he choses to still do the right thing. This one choice he makes proves that he is truly able to lead and is deserving of his dukedom. | 428 | 91dac9ee6b | | I agree, he appears to be a very charismatic leader.
Why do you think so many others have different views of his leadership style? Is it possible that both views of Prospero are correct? In his pursuit to be in control of everything around him, do you think Prospero is truly in control of himself? How does his dialogue at the end of the play tie into that? | 429 | f2ab4e8c19 | Born to be a leader | In this case where the leader also happens to be a slave driver, one would say he has complete control, but he doesn't. Prospero is trapped by his own greed and revenge that he does not have the ability to lead. and actually i do not think he is a leader at all, he may tell people what to do and control their every action, but that does not make a good leader, that makes him a prison warden. towards the end of the play he sheds this greed and malice and therefore EARNS the right to become a duke again. | 430 | 44adf414f3 | | interesting response, todd. | 431 | 00654353d3 | | yes, i agree he starts out as a tyrant. do you think he really changed? | 432 | d633fd9132 | | yes, i think that's a good way to think about it. | 433 | 4ffb1ecc78 | | yes, i have some troubles with how prospero never has to suffer himself,
but i do think he is a changed man. | 434 | ac6f759e71 | | yes, i do think that he sees the connection between forgiveness and
leadership, and also between having no magic answers and leadership | 435 | 56fe312c00 | | yes, i do think the golden rule applies here... | 436 | a0540c5747 | | that's great, cassie. | 437 | 6940bc1bbb | | very nice, in-depth and multilayered answer, chris! | 438 | f37fa3dc97 | | yes, hobbes said that life is nasty, brutish and short, didn't he?
but he wasn't quite writing yet. still, shakespeare would have
had something to say to him.... | 439 | 6bb01a2903 | | very interesting metaphor of the prison warden. i think
that's close to the mark. and he does have to earn a right
that was his by blood, which is itself an interesting idea, isn't it? | 440 | ab93c75280 | | i do think that shakespeare is looking at forgiveness in
a framework of justice, so in answer to your question, no,
i don't think it would be considered a weakness. especially
in a non-democratic paradigm, it's essential to have forgiveness
available. | 441 | 1df9472554 | | yes, i do think that his growth around forgiving others
is what allows us to know he can rule fairly. | 442 | cc3158dd64 | | i like these intertexual references! | 443 | 40c91f18fb | | i do think that leaders are also human....intersting to
think of vengence in this way, chris! | 444 | 8a57d18614 | | yes, i think that there is movement with prospero, so
that it's hard to use words like "bad" or "good" when
what happens is so much more complex. | 445 | 49bfaf9c43 | | what do you think, nate, about what the "darkness that
he doth acknowledge his"--that is, caliban? | 446 | 3b7ba05735 | | in the realm of politics, though it is frighteningly absent, forgiveness is essential. granted, it is reactive, it is a response to being wronged, but i suppose i am simply a firm believer in "two wrongs don't make a right." imagine the consequences, had prospero just sought revenge, killed all of them, or enslaved them. that doesn't exactly make for a happy ending, moreso, he would not become the welcomed duke of milan. perhaps this is too close a glimpse into my political beliefs, but i think the world today focuses too much on "decisiveness" and less on consequence. | 447 | da8bb91d52 | what makes a good leader | Is a leader made in the title, or in the ability to lead? Could not Prospero be a great leader, and yet never get the title of Duke back? I think that the paradigm we use (the window we use to look upon the world) has some shades of "rose"
I haven't found an act of evil from Prospero, just it's [u:da8bb91d52]threatened[/u:da8bb91d52] use........do you think we perhaps lose sight of the fact that the fear of Prospero was a much greater force than any action that we see or hear about, or would you say the use of that fear was an act in and of itself? We know he had unchecked power, how else could he have created the storm in the first place; was his power ever truly used to do evil though? Couldn't that ability to have absolute power and yet have the restraint to not use it be a true demonstration of his leadership? | 448 | 7d76994352 | What defines vengeance | Would Prospero have to kill to get the retribution he sought? I agree with you, but I also think we leap to "death" when we hear the word vengeance.....a rather Pavlovian response. By keeping them alive (a punishment perhaps worse than death) and allowing them to live with the fact that they tried once to destroy him, he lets them live a life of fear doesn't he, knowing that nothing they can do will be able to stop him? Perhaps it's the icing on the cake that he gets to be duke again, maybe not the cake itself? | 449 | 996c703780 | slavery | In [u:996c703780]The Tempest[/u:996c703780] Ariel and Caliban represent slavery. Ariel being like the fair skinned or "house" slave and Caliban the slave put to hard labor. I see in Prospero a parellal to a southern gentleman who thinks he is doing the savages a favor by enslaving them and teaching them to be civilized. That same arrogance that destroyed gentle civilizations like the native americans. On the other hand Prospero is not so obvious a slave. He is perhaps a slave to his lust for knowledge. He could also be a slave to his vengence although in the end he seems to have a change of heart seeing his daughter so happy. His lust for knowledge on the other hand is what got him into this mess in the first place and he ended up putting it above his welfare and the welfare of his dukedom and only child. | 450 | dfbce3b2a4 | | Ferdinand and Miranda are also slaves to their thoughts and emotions | 451 | 50707ab976 | A change of heart | In the end Prospero has a change of heart that I believe is due to his daughter's happiness. He sees the error of his ways and begins to feel compassion for his "subjects". With a softened heart and throwing of his old cloak ,V,i,(Now my charms all o'erthrown), he can forgive and hopes to be forgiven V,i,(As you from crimes would pardon'd be, Let your indulgence set me free.). Those with a contrite spirit are gentler rulers, than those overtaken with lust and greed. | 452 | e424158900 | | I'm not so sure that Prospero is all that interested in people"kissing up" to him. If he was he would have jealously guarded a position of power like the dukedom instead of turning to his book for pleasure. After all being in a position of power on a deserted island is the reward his books gave him. | 453 | b71157ca76 | study group 11/3 @ 2000 (8 PM) | After Melissa and I were able to keep Cassie from crying, we started the review by going over the hand-out. One question I have, because it is pretty integral to how you answer, is how to define "[u:b71157ca76][b:b71157ca76]natural[/b:b71157ca76][/u:b71157ca76]" level. We have our ideas, but just wanted to go fishing for other ideas. We were going to meet again at the Knight Library tomorrow night (Thurs. 11/3 @ 8PM) Hope to see you there. | 454 | a79960e314 | another meeting tonight!!! | if anyone wants to come to our midterm study group, we are meeting again on thursday (tonight) at 8pm at the U of O library.
come come, it's actually fun, i swear. (<--that's iambic pentameter!!!) man, i'm a dork. | 455 | 3a6ef6df70 | Responses anyone??? | Well I see by the number of views that people are at least taking a look at stuff online.......
Now the challenge is to get people to more than just read these posts, but to actually respond. Trust me if I'm able to do it, anyone can. :)
Two topics that our group thinks might be worth discussing are:
1) What was the best example of contrast between appearance and reality at the natural level in [i:3a6ef6df70]Romeo and Juliet[/i:3a6ef6df70]?
2) What differences and similarities do you see between Puck and Ariel? | 456 | 80642e3d4d | natural conflict | What exactly does she mean by "natural conflict"? Can someone give me an example from one of the plays please?? Thanks! | 457 | 213e67a806 | | I am at a loss for any new ideas :/ | 458 | 47d9b4f3fa | Frank Kermode quote | I believe that Frank Kemode is saying that the “borders of wonder and madness” relate to how far you can let your self go to believe in something. There is no limits or borders to what the mind will believe to be true. Everyone believed Viola, a woman, to be a man, Cesario. Toby, Fabian, Andrew, and Maria, had Malvolio believing that Olivia was in love with him. If Malvolio could just see the madness in his thinking. There is no way that Olivia would be in love with him. | 459 | 84e5df4d0f | Frank's quote | There is mistaken identity and trickery between the characters but we know the truth behind it all because we know who the characters really are, and we find it funny because the characters are truly believing what they see at first glance or hear from others without knowing what is really behind it all. Like the quote says they believe what is said not meant, what things appear to be not are and opinions rather than truths. So out of these errors comes a comedy of identities based on borders of wonder and madness, wonder because people are curious and madness because its so absurd and rediculious to the audience that is seems mad. | 460 | 6b22ac126f | Frank at the borders of wonder and madness | A major theme in Twelfth Night is that of mistaken identities. But this theme is upheld by several others, such as characters being gullible and trusting to a fault, believing everything they are told without question. Yet another theme in this play is that of word-play. Throughout the play, people say one thing and mean another, and are understood to have meant either, or something completely different.
In Act 3, Scene 1, Viola and the Fool have a discussion about this very topic. In lines 11-13, the Fool says, "A sentence is/but a chev'ril glove to a good wit. How quickly the/wrong side may be turned outward!" Viola returns, "Nay, that's certain. They that dally nicely with/words may quickly make them wanton." They go on to give further examples of the truths of their statements.
Frank Kermode finds a connection between Twelfth Night and our own world. I imagine Shakespeare meant for that connection to be present. While I cannot imagine the whole scenario actually taking place, there are characteristics of it which no doubt happen every day--the confusion of appearance versus reality, truth and opinion, and what is said and what is meant. These things happen all the time!
It is a commonly believed opinion that the line between brilliance and madness is very thin. Perhaps that is what Kermode is leaning toward in his quote. The title of "mad" is given to Malvolio easily...but is he mad? Not really. The whole story is wavering somewhere between wonder and madness...
Shakespeare placed several characters in their creative positions and let them go wild... Perhaps Shakespeare himself was at the borders of wonder and madness, dabbling somewhere in the middle to come up with plays we still relate to today. | 461 | 68be6aec6b | Kermode quote | [i:68be6aec6b]Twelfth Night[/i:68be6aec6b] is full of false appearances and confused truths. Humans have no borders as to what they believe to be true based upon what they hear and what they experience. Shakespeare’s use of dramatic irony lets the audience wonder as to why the characters are not realizing that they are being tricked. And on the other hand, the characters in the play are set into a whirlwind of madness trying to figure out what is going on and who is telling the truth. A great example of this is in act five scene one, before Sebastian enters, Cesario is getting blamed for a lot of things that he, in reality, did not do.
I think that Kermode is trying to explain that there are no restrictions as to what people can perceive to be true, and that there is a fine line between simply wondering about the truth of something, and going mad trying to figure it out. | 462 | 55c610866f | conventions of shakespeare | dramatic irony is obviously a common in convention in almost every shakespeare play. the madness of his characters as they try to sort out their realities builds tension and comic relief. i find that in many cases, however, the blindness of characters is often the crux of tragedy (hence romeo and juliet, or caliban, or shylock). shifting between wonder and madness, shakespeare bestows upon his audience both understanding (as we can see what is really going on most of the time) and connection (god, how i want to jump onto the stage and tell othello that desdimona is not cheating). while the characters are wondering, the audience is mad, while the audience is wondering, the characters are mad. i believe this gives shakespeare's characters believable dimensions... what's it called? verisimilitude??? i think, at any rate, believably they struggle to figure out what is going on. | 463 | c1afb4ca3b | | shakespeare makes me cry. yes, i do have a heart hiding underneath all that black goopy stuff. | 464 | 186d3ee0d3 | quote | kermode is allowing all those who are reading the play to take part in the entire dramatic irony of the situation. There is a mistaken identity which only the audience is privy too. In this quote i think he is saying ther eis a thin line between what is real and what we choose to believe is real. In the his quote the "border bewtenn wonder and madness" he is showing that in all things there is a thin line between what we can truly find amazing and wonder at and what we believe is absolutely nuts, the true madeness of the situation. | 465 | f5941320d8 | Kermode's Quote | What I think Kermode is really trying to get across is that Twelfth Night is a comedy of mistaken identity, overflowing into a world of wonder and madness with confusions so prominent in the play not only at who people are, but what they say that it seems like everyone at one time or another is mad. And it is the audience who gets to wonder at what is really taking place.
Orsino seems most mad when even after he knows that Viola is a woman he continues to call her by her male name. "Cesario, come/ For so you shall be while you are a man;/ But when in other habits you are seen,/ Orsino's mistress and his fancy queen". Its almost as thought he is telling her that to his she is still a man but only when she is in public can she be a woman. It seems too strange.
Sebastian after ariving in Illyria is confused at why everyone seems to know him some even wanting to kill him whil others in love with him asks, "Are all the people mad?.../Or I am mad, or else this is a dream". And when he realizes it is not a dream he exclaims, "[T]hough ’tis wonder that enwraps me thus, / Yet ’tis not madness."
I think Kermode is trying to explain that love is a form of madness, where one might wonder whether it is our senses that are deceiving us and our ability to reason thwarted. | 466 | 1d84985103 | kermode's quote | Twelfth Night is a play of false identities and hidden meanings. The most prevelant false identity is Cesario who really is wealthy Lady, Viola. She masquerades as a boy in Orsino's court and in turn find's that Olivia has fallen in love with her as Cesario. On one hand she is chosen by Orsino to tell Olivia of his love for her, and to try to win her love for him. On the other Viola is falling for Orsino, and she often uses hidden meanings when speaking with Orsinio. A example of such hidden meanings is when Viola responds to Orsinio asking if "Cesario" had ever been in love and Viola answers with "A little, by your favor" which can be proceved as just Cesario saying that yes he had and the last just a servent being repectful, but since the reader knows that this is really Viola we catch what Orsino does not. Its hard not to think as Viola did she not wonder how Orsinio would recieve her, Lady Viola, how he loves Cesario, would he not love her since they are one in the same, would it not drive her to madness. In Olivia's house there is much mischieve being had at Malvolio's expense as Maria imitates Olivia and writes riddled love letters to Malvolio. Which in turn messes with Malvolio's identity of himself. He is a servant of Olivia, but after Maria and Olivia's kinsmen and other servants start there great scheme he starts to think as if he were king of his castle. And isn't that the an example of mistaken identity when one doesn't even know who one is, which can be a sign of madness. | 467 | 64abd0a7ed | Kermode Quote | Kermode is simply suggesting that Shakespeare is using the idea of mis-identity and mis-communication to give the "Twelfth Nights" its comedy. I think that Kermode is saying that we the reader knows all the events and what is expected to happen (we have further insight to the story, that the characters in the play do not have) that allows us to guess what will happen. It would seem to us (the readers) that wonder and madness, happens because mis-communication and mistaken identity is so close to acutual reality, and we as the readers think that "Hey this could actually happen". The ability to believe and kind of get a sense of what is going on helps the reader of any shakespeare play, provides for a much more sense of understanding. In the Twelvth Night, Viola thinks that she lost her brother, and goes on to preform the identity of Cesario, and like a chain reaction, this event alone leads to all the other events that take place. We (the reader) thinks that this to be possible and maybe a bit "mad", but it is possible. | 468 | 80dfbb66d6 | The first wisdom of sociology........Shakespeare style | Kermode takes Shakespeare and seems to apply a sociological perspective, flirting with the first wisdom of sociology, “things are not what they seem.” I think with this perspective Kermode is commenting on more than just the play, by explaining how Shakespeare is able to transcend the theatre; the comic errors in Twelfth Night not only reflect the world in which we live, it serves to amplify it…..
Too often we become accepting of the world around us, and we don’t allow for the possibility that there is more than there appears to be; we accept the definitions we are given, never questioning where those definitions come from, or who has the power to define. Shakespeare allows us to challenge ourselves at this basic level of human understanding, and is able to do it with comedic twists that help draw the audience in.
I think there are many areas in which the play allows dramatic irony to unfold, especially around the characters, but to me this actually serves to better develop the inter-relations of those characters. It is in those relations where the truest “borders of wonder and madness” are seen.
The relationship of Viola and Sebastian comes to mind when looking for “wonder”. They were very close, separated in a great tragedy in which each thought the other dead. (Vi239) “I had a sister whom the blind waves and surges have devoured.” They continued to live, and continued to grieve their losses, until one day they were reunited. What could be more wondrous than that moment of reunion, and the impact it had upon all the other relationships they were singularly involved in up till that point?
I would contend that Feste, the fool, was as dynamic as any Shakespeare character I have read. His many layers seemed to run the gambit from the obvious fool to the profound thinker, (Vi393<) “Why, some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrown upon them.” How many times have we judged those around us, much as Malvolio had done, believing our own paradigms better than an others?
The madness is most obvious in the plot against Malvolio. Maria, Toby, Fabian, and Andrew provide insight to the adage, “it’s all fun and games, until….” I don’t think any, except Toby, were truly intent on malice; however, Toby was able to create a “groupthink” environment, in which the scheme played out in spite of any individual reservations. As Malvolio pleads with Feste we see the essence of the plot. (IVii96<) “They have propertied me, keep me in darkness, send ministers to me – asses! – and do all they can to face me out of my wits.”
The most amazing part of this “comedy of identify,” as Kermode calls it, is not in the play itself but how “the borders of wonder and madness,” seem to apply to our lives equally well. | 469 | 91289dec87 | | Does the dramatic irony in the play explain all the events? What paradigms do you think we use today that perhaps weren't used by the audience of Shakespeare’s time?
I wonder at how that audience would've perceived things, and how absurd that audience would think the concept of a woman loving a woman; and yet today that is as far from absurd as say a woman believalbly dressing as a man......wait, that really did happen...infact Hillary Swank won an academy award when the movie about that was made? Guess it's not so absurd afterall
I agree that the audience is left believing this is possible, perhaps even more so now than at the time when it was written.
To call Shakespeare timeless seems to be an understatement!! | 470 | 098d5a7d49 | | Role taking, as defined by Mead, explains the socialization we experience, that culminates in the role we see ourselves in. But although we ourselves have one role, in order to relate to other roles, we have to know what those roles are and how they interact. If Malvolio were to believe he had "switched" roles, would he truly then be mad, or just misunderstood? The mistake occurred when the view Olivia had of Malvolio, and the perception Malvolio had of him self were different. I think though, that Malvolios perception had always been different than that of the people around him.....so maybe this was a cruel catalyst for change?
I think you hit the quandary Viola was faced with, trying to gain the affections of Olivia, who had fallen in love with her as Cesario, for the man she herself had fallen in love with, Orsino. It seems to have been a no win situation.....and yet in the end we find "every Jack shall have his Jill." (Puck) | 471 | 916378fc42 | | Would the blindness of the characters be construed as tragic?......or comedic?
I find one of the most problematic things with studies of Shakespeare is that we often try to group all the plays instead of enjoying them for their individual merits. As Kermode contends, things are not always as they appear.
The "definitions" we use for the studies of these plays come from scholars who, although very versed in many elements of Shakespeare and capable of unquestionable insight, can't even come to a consensus about who Shakespeare really was.....! How, then, can we expect them to be solely capable of defining for us what the plays are to mean? If I interpret a play differently than a PHD, does that make me wrong for not having the same feelings? In a scholastic environment, perhaps; but I contend that there shouldn’t be prescribed ways to feel about Shakespeare. I think that is one of the greatest gifts Shakespeare has given us, the ability to personalize his plays!!
I agree with you that the audience is given the unique position of knowing what is going on, and struggling with how plots unfold. It is this believability of the characters that makes Shakespeare so endearing. | 472 | d1df0bad59 | | I agree....a very well reasoned response.
Perhaps it was the situations and not the characters that were truly mad; even then that could be subject to much debate! If only real life could bring about the same resolution Shakespeare does..... | 473 | 5da8b6698e | tragedy and comedy | chris and cassie,
i totally agree that you don't need a ph.d. to
understand shakespeare. after all, his audience
didn't, and they really understood shakespeare!
but i don't think we should confuse enjoyment for
understanding and alalysis. that's the thing about
shakespeare--there is so much depth there, that you
can enjoy it on many levels. the reason why it's
important to understand conventions such as tragedy
and comedy is because these are forms and structures
that are passed on to us culturally through generations--indeed
these forms were passed on to shakespare himself!
that's the point--the form of tragedy or comedy or history or
the sonnet or theatre itself--these were all given to
shakespeare. and so our job is to see what he DOES
with these forms. in order to understand what he is
doing, we have to understand the forms themselves.
that's why you need to understand what came before
picasso in order to understand what he is doing.
this doesn't mean that you can ONLY enjoy picasso
by studying the past. but we are students of
shakespeare--that's precisely why we enter into this
conversation--as students who are studying. this is
a different context than an audience who is just out for
an evening's escape....
anne | 474 | f3b72f5030 | | touche.....
I was trying to comment on the fact that some of the plays could be seen as using multiple conventions.....and there isn't really a singular convention that allows for that....at least that I'm aware of. | 475 | 36f0c8fae8 | There is only our perception of lines... | Our perception is built on our personal experiences. Any given situation is first filtered through our past preconceptions. These preconceptions effectively place our lines in the dirt before we have time to reflect on a given situation. It is the ability we posess to reflect and reshape our ideas based on information collected that allows us to change our opinion. At times the collected information conflicts with itself, and it is this conflict that I believe causes the lines we draw to blur. We may support an aspect of something, but not the whole. For the time The Twelth Night was written I'm sure it had many of these conflicts. A beautiful love between a women and a "man". If it were only that simple. | 476 | b2a033ed80 | | Take drugs with care during pregnancy. [url=http://bytex.org]Drugs in Pregnancy and Lactation[/url] | 479 | 96c1ed7d9b | Final Presentation | I will come dressed in 16th century peasant clothing (I could not afford to make or rent upper class duds). I will give a demonstration using the internet and a short talk to go along with it. I was not sure if we needed a paper to go along with our presentation to show our research? | 480 | 123d201502 | | Gay porn jockstraps japanese nude, male porn sexo anal free porn trailers granny square. Pregnant porn, boy gay soccer [url=http://www.net4free.org/Other/nude-pokemon/ ]pokemon porn[/url], lingerie fetish free anal porn beastiality movies Porn thumbnails black nudes goth porn, mature movie free underground porno kiss ass. Bbw porn shemale blowjob pokemon jesse porn white shadow incest stories asain porn free incest erotica. | 478 | 64165df921 | quote | I think what he is trying to say is that Shakespeare's play is symbolic of the struggles we all face in life of trying to figure out who we really are identity's are tried on and played with and changed. We all struggle with figuring out who we are and what we want in life. I think the wonder and madess comes in when Shakespeare's fantastic imagination takes over and we get the most bizzare love triangle ever. You've got Orsino in love with Olivia who is in love with Viola who she thinks is a man and she ends up accidential marrying Sebastian thinking he's Viola so of course it's totally outrageous but even at this extreme you can still see the quest we all share of finding who we are and our place in the world. | 481 | c1ac000c88 | Final Presentation | The funal presentation that our group has choosen will be to write and sing a song in frontof the class. The song is about 3 min long and we will also have a collage to go with the song. |