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Joe
HTDF Topic #2
by Joseph Escobar - Friday, April 25, 2008, 08:12 PM
An isolationist-internationalist spectrum emerged as the United States ventured into the 20th Century. Under the Class Handouts link, you will find the HTDF_Materials (htdf_2) you need for this assignment. We will start with just three items. First, read Lodge villain article, then listen to the pro_league speech by the Secretary of War, Newton Baker in 1919. Finally, see how the debate persisted until just before WWII in the isolationism and internationalism article.

Consider your own position on the spectrum and discuss the finer points of the historical issue of the establishment of the League of Nations. On which points do you agree or disagree? We will start by discussing past history first, and then I will introduce some new materials, and the discussion can and will move forward to contemporary times.

NOTE: Here is some information provided by one of your fellow students. She says about being able to view the HTDF video clips, "The Macintosh computers in the computer lab at the health building are friendliest to different types of headphones. There are only a few, but they tend to be very available before 10AM and after 5PM."

Picture of Matthew Glassman
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matthew Glassman - Monday, April 21, 2008, 03:35 PM

I Feel that depending on which article im reading, my position changes slightly. I have yet to listen to the speech, but between the article on Henry Cabot Lodge, the definitions of isolationism vs. internationalism, and the positions on the opinion poll, I am an "internationalist" and a "strong reservationsist".  I agree with Secretary of State, Cordell Hull with his statement, "We may seek to withdraw from world affairs, but, we cannot withdraw from the world itself."  I believe that decisions made, can and will, effect the U.S. no matter how far away they are. If Saddam Hussien threatens in any way that he may have weapons of mass destruction, it is our duty to make sure they remain at rest. If we decide to isolate ouselves as a country, it no longer matters what decision we make. If the U.S. decided to remain peaceful and docile towards Saddam, he could decide to use the weapons which may or may not be in his posession, eliminating the U.S.  In my opinion the U.S. must remain involved with the league of nations and the decisions made by the leaders of other countries.  In times of war, however, the U.S. government must consult the people or congress, to maintain it's distribution of power. There are some instances when an executive decision must be made, as I feel that the war on Iraq was warranted.  Senetor Henry Lodge was opposed to Woodrow Wilson's proposal which would obligate the U.S. to fight future wars without the concent of congress (class handout: So Henry Lodge was one of the World's First, Villains?). I would agree with Lodges position in most situations.

 

Picture of Taylor Farnham
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 10:36 AM
When you say "the war on Iraq was warranted," are you using the past tense because it's not warranted to continue?
There was almost no chance of Saddam having WMD, so the White House dug up dubious intelligence. I don't think the U.S. should be involved to the degree that we can attack anyone who verbally threatens us regardless of their capability to harm us.
What do you think of the legitimacy of police action? Does it violate that "distribution of power" you wrote about? Can you clarify under what instances, besides the Iraq war, you think an "executive decision" trumps Congressional authority?
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matthew Glassman - Friday, April 25, 2008, 12:28 PM

I feel that the President would not be doing his job if he let a "possible" attack happen.  Even if no WMD's were found, the "possibility" that they were there is enough for me to respect the decsion to move forward.  What I was saying, is that I like the idea of having to seek the approval of congress to distribute power, however, I believe that the bottom line concern is potential saftey and well-being of our citizens. We cannot group all these decisions together. They cannot be delt with "absolutely". Decisions like the one made to move on Iraq, have to be delt with on an individual basis.  What if the U.S. initiated an offensive toward japan in WWII, would Pearl Harbor of happend?  Im not saying we shouldve dropped nucs, but somekind of preventative measures couldve been taken.  To answer the second part of youre question, yes I believe that our current presence in Iraq is still "warranted".  I think we have to stay there providing some sort of governmental backbone, a sort of foundation for the Iraqies to build on. The only government platform we can effeciantly provide is democracy. I dont believe that the people of Iraq necessarilly have to use democracy, but untill there is a stable government there, we have to stay.

Picture of Taylor Farnham
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Friday, April 25, 2008, 05:59 PM
Isn't liberty the "bottom line concern"? Besides Iraqis not wanting us to occupy their country, most Americans don't want to continue the Iraq War. Going against the balance of power set up by the founders to jump at every "possible" threat -- I would like to point out again that the White House had to find its own "intelligence," going against what the CIA said about Iraq; and that there are other areas of the world with more realistic offensive capabilities who threaten us on a regular basis, whom we don't attack -- is not an effective way of safeguarding liberty.
In re your last statement: as Mr. Parmenter pointed out, our presence is doing the opposite of providing "a stable government there."
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matthew Glassman - Monday, May 5, 2008, 08:05 PM

Do you think that leaving right now would make Iraq more or less politcaly stable? 

Picture of Kristin McLaughlin
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Kristin McLaughlin - Monday, May 5, 2008, 08:56 PM

Pulling all of the troops out at once will make things less stable.  We should start pulling them out a portion at a time.

Picture of Jayson Parmenter
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Jayson Parmenter - Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 09:41 PM
I would have to say I'm more on the side of isolationism. It is not the job of the united states to solve other countries problems, especially when we are not wanted. And if we are the "protector" of some of these other nations why are we doing nothing in Durfur? There is a modern day genocide in southern Sudan and the united states has done nothing for those people. and why haven't a lot American citizens ever heard of this happening? Could it be the lack of united states resources in areas such as these? That really seems to be the biggest influence on who we "save". If you want to see a good example of how "saving" these people can go wrong look up the 1954 war in Guatemala, where the United States had previously secret involvement. And as for modern day affairs, the war on terror in some ways is frighteningly similar to the red scare of the 1950's. We are putting a lot of resources into stopping terror as we did with communism. True communism never actually attacked American soil, But in the 1950's they were viewed as just as evil as terrorists today. And Americans thought the threat of nuclear attack was inevitable. Another interesting thing is that the war on terror seems to be mostly focused towered the middle east, when terrorism is really a world issue. And perhaps our involvement and influences in other countries is amplifying their resentment for us. These readings didn't really change my opinion of this subject, But if we are going to be internationalists we should support all people of oppression no matter what our interests are, but I realize this is unrealistic.
Picture of Taylor Farnham
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Wednesday, April 23, 2008, 10:44 PM
It sounds like you're arguing against isolationism rather than for it, if you're concerned about the genocide in Darfur.
What are you saying in re Communism et terrorism? Are you saying that, like our fight against terrorism, our fight against Communism was a bad idea? Statistics show your statement about "amplifying their resentment for us" is correct in the case of terrorism, but the Cold War led the Soviet Union to adopt more democratic policies. I don't think Americans thought a nuclear attack from terrorists was inevitable, or else we wouldn't have invaded Iraq; and we have viewed other enemies as "evil," such as the Germans in WWI; so your analogy is weak, I believe.
I also think you're confusing the Cold War with the Red Scare(s), which was a suspicion of domestic communism that mostly didn't exist, and was explained in Tuesday's video.
Picture of Jayson Parmenter
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Jayson Parmenter - Sunday, April 27, 2008, 08:51 PM
Yes, you are correct in that ideally I believe the U.S. should help other countries such as Durfur, but this is as I said unrealistic. And I was trying to convey that the U.S. involvement in a lot of past events has been for the wrong reasons and or causes more issues then justifications, therefore we should just leave other countries alone. And I suppose you could phrase my terror/red scare comparison as the cold war, but I am more aiming at the fear of communism in general. Not just the American focus on Russia. and the fact that not only are we putting a lot of resources into terror but we are loosing some liberties in the process. And I did not mean to give the impression that American citizens thought terrorists would nuke us, But the public did and still does think a terrorist attack is inevitable. And in the 1950's this was the same feeling just on a higher scale, or perhaps with todays technology and knowledge of the effects of super weapons the public is afraid of much worse then the fear of the 1950's.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Monday, April 28, 2008, 12:46 AM
Mr. Glassman: Not abridging the rights of other countries by occupying them and killing their people should be more important than Halliburton profits, and I think Ron Paul (part of "the right") would agree.
If you are implying that Saddam didn't want to be diplomatic, that is true. However, I think it's a little unrealistic for the U.S. to claim the high road regarding diplomacy after having invaded his country.

Mr. Deale: Repeating that he was "a great threat to America" doesn't answer my first question. If he didn't have nukes, how was he planning on harming us?
If the goal of a war on terror is to go around the world to "find those who will try to harm us," and you believe such a war is "the right thing to do," I don't think you're an isolationist.
Picture of Matthew Glassman
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matthew Glassman - Monday, April 28, 2008, 02:58 PM
Mr Farnham, you are not understanding what im saying.  I am not suggesting that America should circumvent the laws of other countries and or kill innocent people for youre "Halliburton oil".  what im saying is, first and foremost, i feel that people like Ron Paul are selfish for saying that is no moral responsibility for a nation to help. Mabey you are right, even though we have the recourses and the people that are willing, mabey we should just let them work out their own problems, right?  I find it humerous that we apperantly use food as weopons in these situations.  I must have missed the news clip of our troops using granola bars for ammunition. im simply suggesting that, in Iraq, the U.S. found certain things a little unsettling. Remember when the U.N. asked Saddam to inspect his weopons facilities? That was diplomacy at its finest. All we wanted to do is go in and make sure his government wasnt harboring anything that could potentially be catastrophic. This is sort of reminesant of my highschool days. I used to have long hair and tiedye, when i got pulled over once, an officer asked to search my car. I said no, as was my right, however, it wasnt because of principle.  I disagreed with his request at the time, but several years later, I realized that I had said no for a reason, I didnt want him finding something. Saddam basically said, I dont have what youre looking for, but no you cant search my car.  Weather or not our government found any wmd's, we accomplished many things. We took from power an evil, sadistic leader, gave freedoms to a people that have never had them before, and possibly gained oil for our country.  The oil was not the primary objective though. I agree more with Keyes, why is the America trying to become a nation of isolationists? Who benefits from not helping anyone? I find the news reports on the war very misleading and aggravating.  All you see are half questions that have been edited to provide an agenda. Reports ask the soldiers questions like. " Do you want to be here? and wouldnt you rather be at home with youre family?"  All you see of the interview on tv is the soldier saying, " no I dont like being here."  Reports dont ask questions like "do you think were doing good here?"  In the interview with Ron Paul, he states " mabey Israel would have done something or mabey saudi arabia may have done something, but its not our responsiblity."  I dont think he could be more of a hypocrite. He is saying its everybody elses responsibility but ours.  Other countries should take care of Saddam but not us. I find that selfish and irresponsible
Picture of Jeremy Deale
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Jeremy Deale - Saturday, April 26, 2008, 11:11 AM

I would have to agree with you about being more on the side of Isolationism. The world wants us to intervene in other countries affairs, but when America does intervene, there is always a foul cry of America using its power to enforce its democratic ways on other nations. A clear example of this was World War 1, which was a war America did not need to be part of, but yet had America stayed out of it, there would have been an outrage from the nations fighting. I think Lodge is correct about America being involved in world affairs, but I personally feel that if it's not our fight, then we need to stay out of it until it becomes a danger to us. The League of Nations was a good concept, but leaving American involvement out of the hands of Americans was a bad idea. To be a prosperous and lasting nation, America has to pick and choose which battles to fight and which to avoid. Obviously the attacks of September 11th, forced our hands into a war against terror, which I believe is the right thing to do and although Iraq was not responsible for the attacks, it was crucial to take power away from a dictator who was a great threat to America. But other conflicts around the world that don't directly affect America should not be a high concern. Fighting to keep our freedom and security should be the main focus of America both here, and abroad. These articles did not change my opinion of America's involvement in world affairs, but it left me still feeling a little gray about when America should participate and when it should stay on the sidelines.

Picture of Taylor Farnham
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Saturday, April 26, 2008, 02:00 PM
Mr. Deale, how, exactly, was Saddam "a great threat to America"?
What are the goals of "a war against terror"?
Picture of Jeremy Deale
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Jeremy Deale - Sunday, April 27, 2008, 06:40 PM

According to President Bush, at the time America was going to attack Iraq, he believed Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Although it turns out Iraq did not, he was still a great threat to America who had just gone through a terrible tragedy of September 11th. It was a quick move that probably should've been more thought out, but it was a move that was necessary at the time. The goal of the war on terror is just wishful thinking to me with no real way to accomplish it, but I still think it is good for America to prevent more attacks on our homeland and the only way to really protect America is be proactive and find those who will try to harm us.

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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matthew Glassman - Monday, April 28, 2008, 03:20 PM

I would have to agree with that, it could have been executed a little more effeciantly, but our move on Saddam was most deffinently needed.  Im not saying we should take care of everything with an iron fist, however SOMETIMES, these military actions are vital for the survival of the american people.

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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Rick Price - Thursday, May 1, 2008, 09:50 AM
I think the debate about wmd and whether saddam was a threat to america is kind of moot. We need to realize that that was just the first of many "reasons" the Bush administration has put forth for the Invasion of a sovereign nation. We have heard it was to free opressed people, to spread democracy in the middle east, to engage al Queda there so we dont have to fight them here, etc.
Picture of Taylor Farnham
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Thursday, May 1, 2008, 10:41 AM
Mr. Glassman: I don't think Ron Paul is saying we have no moral responsibility. On the contrary, he encourages private citizens to help. He merely argues that the U.S. has no legal right to invade countries with which we are not at war.
Saddam allowed the U.N. to inspect his facilities. The "freedoms" we gave Iraqis are practically nonexistent because they're being killed by militant groups whose numbers we helped bolster. We have also destabilized the infrastructure of Iraq, which gets an average of 15 hours of electricity a day, when last I checked.
You and others continue to argue that killing Saddam was "vital for the survival of the American people." I would like a clear explanation of why he was a threat to the very existence of America.

Mr. Deale: Do you still think Saddam was "a great threat to America"? If so, please explain why.

Messrs. Deale, Marney, and Grossi: If the U.S. were to send the military into every situation "that could potentially harm" us, we would invade any country with a tariff on American exports instead of simply raising our own.

Ms. Meshnik: I agree. That's the difficulty with trying to help Darfur and otherwise get martially involved with other countries. On the one hand, the Darfur Genocide is a crime against humanity; on the other, sending the military actually might just create more problems instead of improving the situation.

Mr. Haile: I think Ron Paul is saying the same things as you, so I wonder on which points you "feel that Ron Paul is wrong."

Ms. Wiechert: It's important to define "threatened." Saddam threatened us verbally, but he had no means of carrying out his absurdities. Does invading Iraq fall under the category of "interven[ing] when is is just not necessary"?
Picture of Jeremy Deale
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Jeremy Deale - Friday, May 2, 2008, 02:32 PM
I think Saddam was a threat. Maybe not with weapons of mass destruction, but he was too unpredictable and it was the right move to get him out of control. Now do I agree with how the war has turned out, no. But I do still think the start of the war was necessary. I believe when a man like Saddam has too much power and is as unpredictable as he was towards America, something has to be done. I also think an exit strategy should've been in place so we didn't end up getting stuck in Iraq like we are. As for Darfur, I have commented on that and I do believe it is terrible what is happening, but it's not America's duty/job to rescue the entire world. There are enough problems in America and protecting America right now and spreading troops and getting involved in conflicts that are not necessary can only cause more danger for America.
Picture of Taylor Farnham
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Friday, May 2, 2008, 05:37 PM
I'm still wondering why you think Saddam had any means of harming us. I agree that he publicly threatened us, and that he was a little unpredictable (are we going to attack anyone we can't predict?); but he had no opportunity to attack the U.S.
I agree with your last two sentences.
Picture of Taylor Farnham
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Saturday, May 3, 2008, 06:46 PM
I think Ron Paul would have supported the League of Nations -- except the part about sending our troops where the League demanded. The League itself had no army, and its Prime Directive, to borrow a phrase from Star Trek, was diplomacy. I would have supported it too.
Picture of Matt Gerard
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matt Gerard - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 10:33 AM
I definitely agree wtih you on the part how Saddam was a threat to our country. Like you said he may not have had any Weapons of Mass Destruction, but with all that aside the US couldn't just stand there and hope he wasn't going to do anything to us again because he was too untrustworthy, so we had to do something about it. Now that this war has been drawn out for years, I think it's time for us to exit we arent accomplishing anything anymore.
Picture of Taylor Farnham
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 08:39 PM
Once again, I would ask you to explain to me by what means Saddam could have harmed us. You and the rest seem to think that by force of will Saddam could have destroyed the U.S.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Haley Meshnik - Saturday, April 26, 2008, 01:16 PM
I'm going to start out by saying that I'm not up to date on all the history that has gone on in the US with military and government choices, but I want to pose a question. (Responding to what Parmenter talked about.) Why doesn't the United States fight for countries that need help like Durfur. Like Parmenter said, is it driven by the resources or lack of? For example, because they don't supply us oil? In past wars there use to be many soldeirs enlisting to "fight for the United States." I'm sure people still do, but not at all like they use to. Especially with the controversies of the Iraq War. Why doen't the U.S. use their resources and strength to help fight against the genocides in Africa. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure to the extent of what and where we have helped and what we have not. Do you think that U.S. citizens would we more inclines to enlist in the military to help fight against a genocide then compared to the War in Iraq? If we are going to be on the side of internationalisn, what is holding us back from helping countries in genocides? Is that only the role of the United Nations?
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Lindsay Wiechert - Saturday, April 26, 2008, 07:16 PM
I feel the same way. It is hard to know exactly what the U.S. is doing to aid countries in positions like Darfur when the focus has obviously been primarily on the the Iraq war. I feel like if we are a country promoting internationalism, we could do more than just help other countries who can in turn help us. I understand the necessity to find "win, win" situations, but it seems that we could be putting more of our money to use in situations such as the Darfur Genocide. I feel that in this current time we are so persuaded by the media and what we hear, yet there is hardly any world news in the U.S. and we definitely only see one side to the news. I am not sure about how much the U.S. has helped fight genocide in Africa, Darfur, etc. either but it seems as a country it would also be to our benefit to aid countries who cannot in turn help us. I think if we want to move towards internationalism it is critical to reach out to countries in need, even when we may not gain resources or financially. Reaching out to another country sincerely just to better them would be a positive picture for U.S. citizens to see more often and for other countries around the world. As you stated though, I am also not aware of how much of a role we can take or what we have aided in situations such as these...
Picture of Taylor Farnham
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Sunday, April 27, 2008, 12:45 PM
Having watched the 20/20 interview of Ron Paul, I agree with him that the U.S. has no legal justification for sending the military into countries we are not at war with. The Darfur Genocide is a terrible situation, and I think Ron Paul's suggestion that private citizens become involved is the only legal way to solve it, besides, of course, diplomacy.
When it comes to a country with nuclear weapons threatening us, Ron Paul pointed out that we solved the Cuban missile crisis with diplomacy just fine. This is, in a way, related to arguments in support of the League of Nations: the way to avoid events like WWI is through diplomacy; not greater militarism, which was one of the causes of the Great War. Invading a country for peace defeats your purpose from the start.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matthew Glassman - Sunday, April 27, 2008, 04:37 PM
i would like to say that i agree with you on diplomacy. If we could "handle" these situations with diplomatic strategy instead of more evasive actions, i would support that.  The U.S. should make sure that the first step we take with every major decision involving foreign policy is deplomacy, however, that feeling isnt always mutual with whoever may be leading the opposition.
Picture of Lindsay Wiechert
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Lindsay Wiechert - Monday, April 28, 2008, 09:11 AM
I agree that the U.S. has no legal justification to send military into countries we are not at war with. I do not think it makes any sense to invade a country for peace either. As far as involvement with the Darfur genocide, it seems private citizen aid is the most effective way the U.S. can help without becoming overly involved. It is sad that the only way to help is with military, but Ron Paul makes a good point that you just do not have legal justification to send military into Darfur, nor does it even seem like an appropriate answer.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Jeremy Deale - Monday, April 28, 2008, 03:37 PM
I think the U.S. should only get involved in situations that could potentially harm the U.S. Every country has it's problems and I know what is happening over in Darfur is bad, but it shouldn't be America's job to came to the aid of every country. Also by helping other countries, the U.S. can potentially anger a country and cause a major backlash on the U.S. I believe the U.S. can send help for peace and help stop the suffering, but they shouldn't send any military strength unless the danger is to the U.S. We can look for ways to help the problem in Darfur, but its not the U.S. place to intervene and stop anything.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Mark Marney - Wednesday, April 30, 2008, 02:43 PM
I agree with you on this one Jeremy. you nailed it on this one
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Alex Grossi - Wednesday, April 30, 2008, 04:45 PM
I also agree. The U.S. should intervene in situations where someone/something is posing a possible threat to U.S. citizens. The only other time I believe they should step in is when an ally requests our assistance. What seems to anger most people is when the U.S. pokes it's proverbial nose in someone else's business that doesn't directly effect the U.S..
Picture of Lindsay Wiechert
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Lindsay Wiechert - Wednesday, April 30, 2008, 07:54 PM
I agree with this as well. If we are threatened we should intervene or be prepared but I also think it is important to not look for conflicts or ways to involve ourselves in other worldly affairs. I think being responsible for your own country and allies as well as aiding countries in need will keep most people content. I think that it is often not this simple, but it seems important not to intervene when is is just not necessary.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Kristin McLaughlin - Monday, May 5, 2008, 09:07 PM
Yes situations like the ones in Darfur are horrible, and it is a nice thought that we should help.  We can't intervene every time another country has a problem.  Most people don't sign up for the military to go fix all of the problems in the world.  Our military is already stretched too thin. 
Picture of Matt Gerard
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matt Gerard - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 10:57 AM
Deale, I agree with you that the U.S. should only get involved it situations that could end up being a threat to the U.S. It seems we are always at the rescue for other countries, but yet it seems many countries hate us on matter what we do. And like you said it might end up causing a backlash on the U.S. sometime. Sure Darfur may be in need of some major help because of the genocide thats occuring there and which the UN called "the world’s worst humanitarian crisis" and maybe the U.S. can help the suffering some but its not our spot to intervene like you said.
Picture of Taylor Farnham
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 08:53 PM
I would like to point out, as I did to Mr. Deale, that there are many ways to harm us. By not giving us free food, other countries are causing our starving homeless to die. Absurd example, I know, but so is WWI. There were many causes, but the justification for Austria-Hungary was the death of a single person at the hands of someone who wasn't even affiliated with the Serbian government. If we allow nationalistic fervor to trump diplomacy, we're that much closer to absurdity.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matthew Glassman - Sunday, April 27, 2008, 04:29 PM
There are several reasons, in my opinon, why america has yet to get involved with Darfur. You are right on one of them; oil. Oil is a big part of our culture, not that we are using it unnecissarily, but we deffinently require copious amounts of oil to run our day to day activities.  Some of the major companies in the U.S. are doing there part to revamp our energy consumption i.e. Cheverolet with their E85 ethonal cars, but untill these are commonplace we as a country need to secure a adequate amount of oil.  The government is a "government" first and a "buisness" second.  It seems that the only time the left wants to recognize this is when discussing how President Bush has increased our national debt.  Secondlly, after vewing the national response on the Iraq war, i dont see how we can even begin to think about moving in somewhere else.  I think we should have a certain amount of troops helping these situations like Darfur, however I dont think that the majority vote would support the deployment of more troops anywhere else.  I think this Presidential election will greatly effect how we handle foreign affairs like Darfur. 
Picture of Haley Meshnik
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Haley Meshnik - Monday, April 28, 2008, 06:16 PM
When I first listened to the movie clip republican_debate I was upset with Ron Paul’s statement that the U.S. should not help Darfur. However when I watched the interview with Ron, his opinion became more clear and understandable. I’m torn, because I think it’s valid that the U.S. should only defend in the incidents that threaten our country. What gives us the right to just invade and “try to bring peace” in whatever country we want. However, the other side of me thinks that the people in Darfur need our help. If you think about the Holocaust, millions of people died because of their government. Do you think we should have stayed on U.S. soil and allow the innocent people to be killed by the millions? How long would the Holocaust have lasted if we didn’t intervene? If we had stood back and watched, I feel that many Americans would have so much guilt knowing that we could have helped save the people from Hitler. How is Darfur different, nearly a million have been killed through violence or disease, millions have thought to have been displaced, and their government is holding back information by jailing and killing witnesses since 2004 and tampering with evidence such as mass graves to eliminate their forensic values? (wikipedia) Is helping the Darfur people an invasion? I bet if the U.S. came to aid their country that their suffering people would welcome help, hands down. But then there is the other issues. What happens after we help to stop the genocide? Would the Government feel we needed to stay there to help get them back on their feet, like we are doing in Iraq?
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Tomas Haile - Tuesday, April 29, 2008, 12:50 PM

I feel that Ron Paul is wrong when he talks leaving all countries alone and letting us be total isolationists. As far as war goes and WMD we should stay on our soil and not temper with other countries problems. I believe in diplomacy and that is what we should have done with Iraq. We can not go into countries forcing them to change there ways because we would not take it if some made us change our ways in our own house. As far as Darfur goes we need to aid and help countries like that. Help them get on there feet and get there country on the right track again but not to be done in any type of forceful manner.

Picture of Alex Grossi
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Alex Grossi - Wednesday, April 30, 2008, 05:01 PM
My view is one of Internationalism. I would view these sides completely differently in a past century. Prior to the adoption of ICBMs', Cruise missiles, and intercontinental aircraft it was possible to protect your boarders from within them. It is now possible to destroy a civilization without ever have been within several thousand miles of the target. That's progress and it completely changes the scenarios' that you have to prepare for.
Picture of Kristin McLaughlin
Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Kristin McLaughlin - Thursday, May 1, 2008, 11:38 AM
I don't understand why the United States has to be the world's police.  I do agree with many of you that in cases where there is potential harm to the US we need to act.  We can't send help to every little country that needs food, or is fighting among each other.  I think there needs to be a balance of isolationism and internationalism.  It is unrealistic to think that our country can fix every problem that can arise in the world, or that we should try.  The US has its own problems that need to be addressed. 
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Rick Price - Sunday, May 4, 2008, 10:10 AM
I suppose I would have to come down more on the internationalist side of the spectrum, but is there a place on the spectrum that values diplomacy rather than military intervention? Our current administration seems to favor gunboat diplomacy and threats rather than true diplomacy. The "carrot and stick" approach they have taken fails because the carrot more often is forgotten while the stick is used to beat down those who dont toe the line. Consider the fact that the U.S. is deploying 3 more aircraft carriers to the Persian Gulf, The USS Kittyhawk, USS Abraham Lincoln, and USS Nimitz. (http://newsblaze.com/story/20080426120539payn.nb) If these are solely meant for subdueing resurgent anti US elements in Iraq, so much for "Mission Accomplished". However, this action is meant to intimidate Iran over it's purported anti US activities in Iraq and their nuclear program. As yet Iran does not possess missiles capable of reaching US soil. The best missile in their arsenal has a range of approximately 2,500km (1500 miles)  (http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Iran/Missile/index.html) While this capability clearly threatens much of the Middle East and Europe, does it merit US sabre rattling? I believe a vigorous diplomatic approach  involving as many European and Middle Eastern countries, as well as the United States, is far better than engaging in another ill-advised, preemptive war like the one we are engaged in in Iraq. Bring the carrot back and show them that a move away from isolationism and toward international cooperation can benefit all.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Rick Price - Sunday, May 4, 2008, 11:04 AM

On the subject of the US being the world's police?....Impossible. Considering the conflicts the US is involved in in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as it's other military commitments abroad, our military is stretched to the point of breaking. Rcruitement levels are far below goals forcing the military to institute stop-loss programs (http://www.military.com/news/article/general-stoploss-needed-through-09.html). While action in Darfur is sorely needed, that action needs to be diplomatic rather than military intervention on the part of the US. The conflict in western Sudan's Darfur region is between non-Arab rebel forces,  the Sudanese government, and loyalist Arabic tribesman. These Arabic tribesmen known as the Janjaweed have been attacking non-Arab tribes, killing and displacing them from their lands. many atrocities have been attributed to this group. Although the Sudanese government denies it, they have been shown to be arming and financing the Janjaweed because anti-government forces draw their support from these non Arab tribes. This conflict appears to be along ethnic and tribal lines rather than religious ( http://www.humanrightswatch.org/english/docs/2004/07/20/darfur9095.htm).  U.S. proposed sanctions against the Sudanese government will only deepen the plight of the people in my opinion. Vigorous international diplomacy that includes non-coercive incentives for the government of Sudan to reign in tribal militias and improve its human rights record can, and eventually will, win the day.

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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Rick Price - Sunday, May 4, 2008, 11:01 AM
And finally...The attacks of 9-11 in my opinion mandated a military response in Afghanistan.  Going after Al Queda, Bin Laden, and the Taliban which supported them was right and just. Attacking Iraq in an illegal,  pre-emptive action on trumped up intelligence was the biggest foreign policy mistake I have seen in my lifetime.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Mark Marney - Monday, May 5, 2008, 01:11 PM
Rick i agree but i dont think it was the biggest foreign policy mistake. The worst is yet to happen and its going to hurt all of us badly.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Rick Price - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 08:07 AM
Can you elaborate?
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 06:15 PM
Mr. Price asked, "Can you elaborate?"

Sure, even though it's off-topic. I was merely supposing that perhaps the reason other countries frown on our actions is because the actions themselves are reprehensible. Mr. Glassman seemed to be saying that if we put on a happy face, other countries would think torture is just fine after all.

EDIT

Having not been paying attention to the threaded nature of this forum, I thought Mr. Price was addressing his question to me.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Rick Price - Sunday, May 4, 2008, 11:21 AM

Did I say "and finally"?..big grin As far as the historical question of US involvement in the League of Nations, I must say that I agree with the constitutional argument that the US Congress must retain sole authority to decide whether the US goes to war or not. Getting into a war to just fulfill treaty obligations would not have inspired the American people to have a will to fight and would have caused deep divisions within the country. Foreign military involvement without clear reasons vital to US inerests is a poison to this country....sound familiar? I do however, support the idea that a majority of countries presenting a united diplomatic front against unjust actions by other countries and governments is vital to peace.

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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matt Gerard - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 11:05 AM
I agree that the Congress should have the main authority whether or not the U.S. goies to war. Like you said going to war to fulfill a treaty obligation would there not be very many people willing to fight, but it would probably only cause an uproar in our own country by our own people. The people for the most part now think theres no more reason to stay in this war we our in now. So if we enter a war just to fill a treaty who knows what will happen to this nation.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Miranda Gloster - Sunday, May 4, 2008, 05:47 PM
I agree with both isolationism and internationalism. America should be involved with other nations and we should also be up to date on their world status. On the other hand I do not believe that the U.S. should be fighting wars for those other nations. The American public is not completely satisfied with it's own country and politics, so how are we suited to advance our life style on others, especially when they are not asking for that. When the U.S. is asked for assitance in any way, we tend to take complete control and many times for our own benefit, giving America the "bad guy" reputation that will take far longer to discredit than it did to establish. We should definately be aware of our surroundings and know where we stand as a nation amongst others, yet we should not jump to the occasion of war and when it is necessary for our involvement all parties should have a complete understanding of our intentions, capabilities, and desires. We also must understand the oppositions intentions before we commit our soldiers to another nation. I believe that all wars relate to our safety, and that is why we should be abundantly aware and limitedly involved. 
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Lindsay Wiechert - Monday, May 5, 2008, 04:06 PM
I agree with this. I think it is important for the U.S. to play their part without getting involved in wars where our assistance is not necessarily the best thing for everyone involved. I think that the U.S. has a lot of its own problems and that time and money could be spent here before getting involved in wars that do not directly relate to the U.S. I think it is important to be involved when necessary but not for our own interest.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matthew Glassman - Monday, May 5, 2008, 06:06 PM
Im still wondering who didnt benefit from our involvment. I understand that we, as Americans, have our own problems here, and we have always been sensitve of this. The U.S. has committies and organizations already on top of the problems we have I.E.  associations for family protection, for drug abuse, for poverty both inner city and rural, etc. the list goes on and on.(http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Federal/All_Agencies/index.shtml).  The American people have been and will continue to work on these problems tirelessly. However, there are problems outside of this region that need attention, only in these places, their government isnt as willing to fund or even acknowledge them.  my question is, why should these people have to suffer these problems?  What makes them different than us?  There hasnt been a conscription act since 1940 when the Selective Training and Service Act (54 Stat. 885) passed.(http://www.lycos.com/info/conscription--united-states.html).  Our troops werent forced into Iraq, they volunteerd.  Some of our troops went in for the money and some went in because they wanted to go overseas specifically to help. I disagree with this belief that we are a negative entity in Iraq because some people died.  It would be unrealistic to think that in 2008 we have the ability to accomplish what we have without marginal deaths.  Im not saying I wouldnt like to see that happen.  If it were possible to have the same outcome without any deaths, I would do everything i could to further that method.  As for money......you got me there. We are spending an extremely high amount of money. Im not sure what to do there. No matter what we do, nationaly or internationaly, we are going to be spending money we dont have.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Kristin McLaughlin - Monday, May 5, 2008, 09:19 PM

We do have organizations and committies to help our domestic problems, but there is more that can be done.  It seems that these organizations are only making a dent in our problems.  There is still a long road to travel. 

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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Jeremy Deale - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 12:22 PM

I think wanting the U.S. to help out nations who can't help themselves is a noble concept, but like I said earlier, it is not the place for America to go into any country and try to solve their problems. If America did that then we'd be spread out all over the world even more then we already are. I think securing our own safety at home and protecting our interest aboard is the main focus of the government and should continue to be instead of running to aid every country that needs the U.S. Now I do believe our existance in Iraq was needed and is still needed and i believe that those soliders knew by joining the army, navy, or any armed forces, they could be sent into war. Also the reason I continue to think Saddam was a huge threat to America is because all it would take for him to pose immediate danger would be to get a nuclear weapon from a very willing nation and use it against America. Saddam was not a guy I would've taken lightly especially after how easily America was attacked on September 11th. So I still think on the side of Isolationist and I still think America is best to stay out of "battles" we aren't directly involved in. I don't believe countries would rush to help America if we were in distress, in fact I believe many nations would be happy to see America fall, so it is America's main duty to protect America.

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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Matthew Glassman - Monday, May 5, 2008, 06:50 PM

I agree with you, America does have a tarnished "bad guy" reputation now. I dont necessarily think that our rep is an accurate reflection of how we are viewed by other countries.  Over the past 6 or 7 years, we have been making ourselves look bad.  All these people that have anti-bush bumperstickers, all the people that attended the anti-war demonstration in Portland, which had upwards of 10,000 people, or any of the others for that matter, all have a adverse effect on our national image.(http://mediamonarchy.blogspot.com/2007/03/portland-peace-march-attracts-more-than.html and http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0117-10.htm) I dont understand how U.S. citizens can think that other countries would look positivley at us if we cant even look positivley at ourselves. We are not the only country with a news station. When people in Russia or England watch the news, they see Americans uniting against other Americans.  It makes us look week, unstable and separated.  Another prolific negative image media tool that gets used today is the associated press photography.  Its interesting to me, that during FDR's admin, the press worked with him to make him look stronger or at least not handicapped. Durring Bush's admin. every picture you see makes him look handicapped.  The AP never puts pictures of him up that are strong speaking poses, just ones where is mouth is half open, like he is drooling.  Check out the differences between Bush's and Obahma's photos,  and tell me that there is no liberal slant on the scale.

liberal                                                                           conservative

(John Stewart) I-------I---------------I------------------------I (bill oriely)

                          (A.P.)        (unbiased media)

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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 02:08 AM
Mr. Glassman, you wrote: "Im [sic] still wondering who didnt [sic] benefit from our involvment [sic]." Maybe all the dead people. Or the injured. Or the people living in constant fear of the increased terrorism that our presence has caused.

The thing the matters concerning our reputation is our actions, not what our people say about them. Would it be right for the American people to be proud of torture, as long as it helped our image (it wouldn't help)?

You do know that John Stewart is a comedian, right? But wait, your post has nothing to do with the topic.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Jeremy Deale - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 12:31 PM

Our involvment was very much needed. Deaths happen all the time and soldiers know they could be sent to die in war. They volunteer to join the armed forces, and in war time people die, but at least American soldiers do a good job at trying to save innocent lives. And what people are you talking about who live in constant fear of terrorism? I believe Americans fear a terrorist attack, but I also think most Americans believe the U.S. is doing a good job of protecting us from terrorist. As for our reputation, America is very disliked and will always be disliked just because of how America works. The war in Iraq just gave people a reason to find fault in America. 

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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 06:17 PM
I was talking about the Iraqi dead, wounded, and fearing.
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Rick Price - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 08:13 AM
It seems to me that placing John Stewart on the liberal side of your media spectrum may be a stretch..after all he is a satirist on comedy central., but then again, I laugh at BillO all the time .
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 06:22 PM
I raised a question in class today about what effect the U.S.'s joining the League of Nations would have had on Germany just before WWII. I agree with the teacher that it wouldn't have made much difference. It would have added more power behind any deterrence; the problem is, the European members didn't want to do anything about Hitler, and I have no reason to believe that America, with its location across the Atlantic and its numerous pieces of isolationist, antiwar legislation, would be any more willing to act. What do you think?
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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Kristin McLaughlin - Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 09:47 PM

I don't think America would have wanted to act even if they were a part of the League of Nations.  I think that isolationism and anti-war feelings were too strong.  The League itself didn't want to act.  I agree with you and the teacher on this one.

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Re: HTDF Topic #2
by Taylor Farnham - Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 09:03 PM
So what does everyone think about Article X? Was it a good reason not to enter the League of Nations? Part of the problem with pre-WWI conditions was that "international anarchy" discussed in class, which involved alliances that compelled the world to go to war. The League of Nations wouldn't have been secret, as those alliances were, but countries would still have been forced to war under certain circumstances. Even though the major powers would have been mostly on the same side, I think some reservations are valid, and that President Wilson should have told the Democrats to accept Lodge's version of the treaty.