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Joe
HTDF Topic #1
by Joseph Escobar - Sunday, April 6, 2008, 09:09 PM
The liberal-conservative spectrum explained in class last week is an important tool for analysis of historical topics and current events. Under the Class Handouts link, you will find the HTDF_Materials you need for this assignment. We will start with just two items. First, read the Defining Conservatism article carefully. Consider your own position on the spectrum and discuss the finer points of the article. On which points is it accurate? On which does is it less accurate? Historically, this class starts in 1900, and that is the year depicted in the censorship example. Watch this 3 minute video and consider the state of censorship (and conservatism) prevalent in the United States at that time. Start your discussion with these items. Other items will be added during this two week discussion to shape and/or reshape the discussion.
Picture of Sebastian Sandoval
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Sebastian Sandoval - Monday, April 7, 2008, 10:58 AM
I found it interesting how they used Ronald Reagan, Hitler and Mussolini in the same sentence. Though it's a valid point, all being right wing conservatives and mongers of hate and fear. The idea of Terror Management, in my opinion is the most prevalent trait of a conservatives. Republicans try to align themselves with the Christian faith and morals, and what preaches more fear than religion? I can't think of anything that uses fear to control the masses like religion. Also, these days you hear the most hate coming from white supremacists, who are usually devout Christians. Even these Christian nuts like Pat Robertson who are given airtime spew so much hate and try to instill a sense of fear in the masses so then they can do whatever it takes to control this so called "terror." I for one, have always considered myself to be on the more radical side of the spectrum. I do appreciate the ideas of capitalism in some respects but I also believe that capitalism spawned the birth of racism. The psychological wage of whiteness and the institution of slavery was key in the survival of capitalism and without a cheap labor force that could be exploited the system would fail. I do believe that people should be rewarded for their hard work and wished that we actually did live in this meritocracy that we supposedly have. I hold many socialist views on the world and believe we should have more social programs and benefits in this country. I think that corporations should be taxed and this money go into these social programs like they used to.
The movie clip on censorship was interesting, it's funny to see what was trying to get censored back then and what they try to censor now. I do believe in censorship in the respect that 4 year old kids shouldn't grow up watching porno and seeing dead people on TV. This being said however, I don't believe it is the governments job to censor what the youth sees. It is the parents of these children who must be held accountable and responsible. On the note that people may find something offensive then they just shouldn't watch it. Censoring material that might offend some and making it unavailable to everyone due to that is a slippery slope. I hate seeing racists on TV saying things that are just entirely out of line, but I don't wish to censor them. They have their opinions I have mine. I wouldn't want my opinion to be censored because it offends them. In order for me to have my rights of free speech, they must also have theirs.
Picture of Maggie Jo McKinney
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Maggie Jo McKinney - Wednesday, April 9, 2008, 06:13 PM
Well after reading and seeing the clip.. I think the only thing I really agree with the previous post about is censorship. I believe it is the parents job to show an interest and act as a filter for what their children can and cannot watch. The government already has a good amount of control over what goes on in our country, its nice that they dont have a huge hand in what is shown over our TVs.

Although religion does teach fear.. its not fear of change. Yes, most left winged people are clearly more open to change than the more conservative, but to say "Christian nuts.. are given airtime to spew so much hate and try to instill a sense of fear in the masses" is a little overboard. I do understand most conservatives are Christian.. but what then is there to say about the Christian Liberals? There are those out there ya know! I just think that to divide the political spectrum mostly by religious belief is a little unfair. Feeling like you have been fully compensated for the hardwork done I feel is all in the eye of the one who did the work.
Picture of Sebastian Sandoval
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Sebastian Sandoval - Wednesday, April 9, 2008, 11:00 PM
I don't see how you can say the Church isn't afraid of change. Change is the enemy of many churches, especially the Catholic church. The enlightenment was the birth of science and this CHANGE from the previous notion that things were the way they were because God made them that way scared them so much that anyone who partook in these new beliefs was made an outcast or jailed. The church is afraid to change, and that is one reason why religion is slowly dying. The church refuses to evolve with modern times and it becomes stale. I'm talking about Republican Christians, not Christian Liberals because the Democratic party doesn't try to win an election using religion and Christian values as one of their main platforms. Look at this quote from Pat Roberts, "There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore." Or what about him and Jerry Falwell 2 days after 9/11 laying blame on the ACLU, homosexuals, lesbians, abortionists, People for the American Way and feminists. Saying that God had lifted his protective power over the United States to let this happen as punishment for trying to secularize America. The fact that people put religion into politics in this manner is disgusting. I'm not dividing the political spectrum based on religion, I'm saying that the conservatives try and push religion into politics and liberals don't. Funny how Falwell died from a sudden cardiac arrhythmia, justice well served.
Joe
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Joseph Escobar - Thursday, April 10, 2008, 09:29 AM
So here is where I get to jump in.

First, the reading on defining conservatives is to be applied to the censorship clip. Moreover, the words Christian or church do not even appear in the article. While I appreciate that there is some religious relationship implied, it is not and should not become the main focus of this forum.

Second, while I appreciate an exchange of ideas, I said I would confront inaccurate statements or arguments. As an educator, I cannot, in good conscience, knowingly allow for the possibility that some students might leave this class with wrong information. So I respectfully make the following corrections for the benefit of all. (These points are not to be debated, addressed, or replied to in this forum. They deal with student comments that are not related to the main question of this forum. This may be considered unfair, but as instructor, I do get to make the rules. smile )

>> capitalism spawned the birth of racism - wrong, racism (and slavery) long pre-date the birth of capitalism, and even that date is debatable, by HUNDREDS of years.

>> While stating that the Catholic church does not not accept change is largely accurate, to then go on a quote two Protestant leaders (Robertson and Falwell) is not a reasonable line of argument. Also, saying Falwell deserved to die as he did is just mean-spirited and encourages forum "flame wars" rather than intelligent discussion between fellow students and "seekers of knowledge"

>> I have addressed the "separation of church and state" issue in class. Using a single quote from one church leader can be considered a straw man argument. This "doctrine" is a MUCH more complex issue than that.




Picture of Sebastian Sandoval
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Sebastian Sandoval - Thursday, April 10, 2008, 04:13 PM
Well I guess that's where we differ, Slavery wasn't made an only black institution until the late 1600's. In the late 1600's you see separation on a racial basis rise after Bacon's Rebellion, here begins the progressive investment in whiteness. The rich could not have all indentured servants or slaves acting as one. They needed to further divide them, thus RACISM is born. It wasn't until after Bacon's rebellion that you see whites moving from the fields to doing tasks in the home and then being removed from Slavery all together. In the early 1700's you see methods of terror to keep blacks and whites from acting together. If you were caught aiding one another in escape the whites were punished more severely than the blacks. Heads were put on stakes, laws were passed to stop blacks and whites from getting married and even from being seen together. This is how the birth of capitalism led to the ideas of racial inferiority. Prejudice and racism are two different things in my opinion. Everyone can hold prejudice but prejudice + the power is racism. If you hold prejudice and then hold the power to keep the ones you believe inferior down you are racist. The notion of racial inferiority on biological level spawned in the 1700's. Before the enlightenment, difference was based on culture, religion or language not race.
Picture of Jordan Nygren
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Jordan Nygren - Thursday, April 10, 2008, 06:53 PM
Let me start by saying that I have yet to see the video. Dial up internet and videos don't really mix that well. So I am only half up to date.

One thing that you are not including is that African slaves were sold to the Dutch by other Africans. So if we go by your definition of "racist" since the stronger tribes saw themselves as better then the weak tribes, and held the power, then they would be racist against their own race? And if I'm not mistaken wasn't Martin Luther King Jr. a Baptist minister? And did he not support change? I may be wrong about this but did he not have the support of other high ranking church officials.
And if Pat Robertson is a "nut" for expressing his own religious views on his own religious tv program. Then this country is full of "nuts" on both sides of the spectrum.
Picture of Sebastian Sandoval
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Sebastian Sandoval - Thursday, April 10, 2008, 10:37 PM
They weren't racist towards their own people. They sold peoples they had conquered in the fight for land in exchange for money and in a sense freedom for themselves. They aren't going to be enslaved if they are capturing and selling people to the slave trade. They didn't sell them into slavery because they hated their own race, slavery existed before racism and these slaves were most often people caught being homeless (Irish slave trade) or peoples captured by neighboring tribes in wars. It wasn't until the late 1600's and 1700's that whites were no longer in the slave trade. This was to create a notion that non whites were inferior and not of the same species. Today when someone says the word slavery, we all think of the time when Africans were enslaved, we don't think of the whole entire spectrum of slavery. Looks like they succeeded in attributing Slavery solely to Africans.

As far as Pat Robertson goes, you aren't listening. I apologize for my comment on Jerry Falwell but what I am saying is that Pat Robertson is trying to force more religion into politics and that the republicans line themselves up with religion and religious morals as a platform for election. This is pretty damn smart of them, but I think it's messed up. Yes, their are radicals on both sides of the spectrum but for me, personally, I think religion should have no involvement with politics so people like Pat Robertson really get me steamed. I believe that our country does need a revolution and in order to survive as a nation we need to fix our foreign policy and go back to the values that were in mind when our country was founded.

In response to your comment about Dr. King yes he was a minister and yes he was for change but you can't compare an African man fighting for civil rights with white religious conservatives.

Going back to the original topic on censorship I shall elaborate how I feel. As I have already stated I believe that the parents are in charge of making sure what their kids do and don't watch. Movies, video games, music and all things in the entertainment industry have ratings and warnings for exactly what kind of offensive material it contains. Censorship along the lines of hate speech is a sticky subject for me though. If someone like Hitler were to rise up and start preaching genocide and telling people to go out and kill Jews in any way possible then I think I might be for the censorship of this person because it could lead to a lot of violence and harm many innocent people. Censorship on public broadcasting is also a sticky place. Local radio stations should be limited on what they can say, but not as limited as they are now.
Picture of Trenna Wilson
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Trenna Wilson - Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 07:26 PM
>If someone like Hitler were to rise up and start preaching genocide and telling people to go out and kill Jews in any way possible then I think I might be for the censorship of this person because it could lead to a lot of violence and harm many innocent people.<

That is a thoughtful sentiment, but in what way could censoring what somebody says help avoid mass violence such as happened in the Holocaust in Germay and in the many other genocides even in the past century?

For one, how far can censoring go? Much of what Hitler said about people he identified as subhuman (and recall only 6 of the 11 million killed were Jews) wasn't very public at the time.

And who would censor him? Within the scope of national sovereignty, dictators don't have many people to stop what they say.

Most importantly however is that transparency is what protects, I think. If somebody runs around dribbling hate speech, it is easy for them to make themselves look foolish. Any person whose rhetoric is far off either end of the spectrum is unlikely to be taken seriously by all but a few. However, like the heavy metal artists, the minute an authority brands somebody's words as vulgar, hateful, or whatever, they give those words an authenticity and power they did not previously have. Somebody spouting anti-Jewish, anti-black, anti-immigrant, or anti-Christian sentiment on a streetcorner is likely to be dismissed beyond perhaps a 5-minute verbal challenge. Somebody whom an authority bothers to condemn however ... oooh ... it has then been recognized that their words are powerful enough to cause fear. Then everyone wants to know what the ruckus is about, and more people listen.

And if somebody has been condemned by an authority, then other people who feel marginalized by that authority are more likely to sympathize.

No, I think a modern Hitler would be made more powerful if anybody bothered to censor him. Better to go with Mel Brooks' tactic in The Producers and repeat his statements in a way that makes him look ridiculous.
Picture of Andrew Conlon
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Andrew Conlon - Thursday, April 10, 2008, 09:34 PM
Racism in the Middle Ages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Racism_in_the_Middle_Ages_and_during_the_Renaissance
It is wikipedia but I'm not going to the library to contend this arguement.
Picture of Andrew Conlon
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Andrew Conlon - Thursday, April 10, 2008, 10:37 PM
Firstly, I started with reading the article which I found to be a bit choppy due to little usage of transitions between paragraphs.
The article discusses conservatism as a mental or psychological state that shows consistent perspectives from meta-analytic calculations. The psychological factor calculations produced key dimensions. The first was "avoidance of uncertainty." This hanging on to the status quo is easily related to the video on censorship because the government feared the repercussions of further liberating of artistic expression. From many conversations I've had with older, more conservative generations, there always seems to be a fear of society breaking down and losing its morals when a new controversial fad becomes popular. Yet as each generation passes, and the new dangerous music or movie fails to corrupt our society, one has to wonder why so much energy is wasted on the censorship. That energy could be spent on fixing poverty, drug addiction, and other problems that have a greater impact on the morals of our nation. I can understand the perspective of the older conservative generation because I have been told that society has slipped, that "in the old days, children could play and roam free without adult supervision." I can agree with this statement because if I were a parent I would be worried about the dangers and the criminals who prey on children. Still, I don't see a correlation between "racy" art and a negative impact on society.
The second key dimension of conservatism was "an endorsement of inequality." I didn't relate this to the video but found this to be an accurate statement. With this evidence the author goes on to say that Reagan, Mussolini, and Hitler all shared this trait. I found it a little absurd to put a perpetrator of genocide and the leader of the fascist movement in the same category as the right-wing president. I felt it to be little bit of a stretch, like saying Hitler, Mussolini and Reagan all like milk and are right-wing conservatives; ding, another trait to add.smile

Picture of Sebastian Sandoval
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Sebastian Sandoval - Friday, April 11, 2008, 02:46 AM
100% agreed. Although, I can see how they lump Mussolini, Hitler and Reagan into the same category but like you said, it is a bit of a stretch. Personally, I can see how they used the same tactics but to very different degrees.
Picture of Jordan Nygren
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Jordan Nygren - Friday, April 11, 2008, 09:00 PM
For me the topic of censorship is to broad to take a firm stance. There are so many things that we are exposed to that I can't just say that I am for or against it. One thing that come to mind is a few years ago when the big issue of video games was on the table. How studies were being done to try and see if violent video games led to real life violence. It was absurd. I don't doubt that there are some kids who see something on tv or in a video game and go out and try it. But one factor of that is what kind of home those kids grow up in. what kind of structure do they have? Then on the other side there are the people that are mentally and emotionally unstable. I do think that it's the parents job, not the government, to pay attention to what their kids are doing. The problem with that is many parents are so worried about work, and who knows what else, that they just toss the kids in daycare or hire a nanny. I am not against daycare, but I think that in some cases it is overused.
One thing that has struck me as odd is that Liberals seem to be the ones that cry out for more government programs to add to the ones we already have, many of which don't work, but then as soon as something comes along that limits what they can do they scream bloody murder. yes I know conservatives complain about many things themselves. I just find it interesting that the government can do what they wish with our money (like a one million dollar bike and pedestrian bridge over the freeway that leads to nowhere) but as soon as they say what expletives can or can't be said until after a certain hour we are being oppressed. It seems to me that the bigger you let government get, the more control they get. It's all good until something happens that we don't like. And thats true of both sides.
Picture of Brittney Winn
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Brittney Winn - Saturday, April 12, 2008, 01:31 PM

Well let me start off by saying that I'm am pretty in the middle as far as the spectrum goes, so I don't want people to think that I am trying to prove a point for any "side"... So anyways, as far as the article on conservatism goes, I agree with the post by Andrew... I think that most conservatives are more concerned with preserving morality, and family values. I also agree that lumping Mussolini, Hitler, and Ronald Regan all together is a little bit of a stretch.There is a difference with being "close minded" or whatever people want to say about Regan, and being just down-right insane and inhumane like Hitler. I think people have to remember that while we break ourselves off into political "groups" such as conservative, liberal, democrat, republican or whatever, it really still comes down to peoples character. I know stereo-typical conservatives and liberals, but I also know plenty of republicans who are don't hate gay people or abortion, and I know plenty of democrats who go to church or are really judgemental. When it really comes down to it, people are people, we all have different views of what is right and wrong, and we all need to respect each others opinions even if we don't always agree...  And for the video on censorship, I think that people can put whatever they want on television. People have a right to  broadcast what they think is worthy t.v. and the viewers have a right to access information from all opinions...it's up to us to choose on whether or not we want to watch it, or want our kids to be exposed to it. There are definantly some things that I wouldn't want my kids to watch these days. We have come a long way from watching Looney Toons after school to South Park! lol. But like people have been saying in the discussion, that is a personal thing that is really up to parents. And I think that the t.v. industry has done more that enough by creating blockers that you can put on certain channels, and putting ratings on shows and movies. And you have to remember too, that while filtering everything or being  sheltered can be good in moderation, once you put a person like that into the real world, they will be naive and ignorant, and won't know how to handle themselves. We just have to find the happy medium. This is just my opinion on things and I hope I didn't offend anybody! smile

Picture of Trenna Wilson
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Trenna Wilson - Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 07:41 PM
> For me the topic of censorship is to broad to take a firm stance.

I think you're right. It seems there are a lot of questions about what type of censorship:

-- What is being censored
-- Who is being protected
-- What are they being protected from
-- Who is the body judging what is good or bad
-- Who and how will things be enforced
-- How likely are the efforts to produce a real benefit, compared to the hard costs and effort involved

Ratings on video games, movies, and television are types of censorship I can go for wholeheartedly, for they (to repeat something else I posted) function like food labels: the people who care get the information they need, the people who want to pursue pleasure aren't restricted in doing so. Really risky things like alcohol and strong medicines are more tightly restricted so it isn't only up to the buyer.

Censoring news however is a different item -- I can't think of any reason to protect people from the news (unless it's more trash about Britney Spears).

Jordan (and others), do you have clear cut places where you think censorship is good or bad? What about prayer in public schools, advertising to children, media coverage of war, profanity restrictions in radio, partial nudity on prime time network TV?
Picture of Jeremy Fineberg
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Jeremy Fineberg - Monday, April 14, 2008, 05:14 PM

    I agree that people are too eager to categorize someone as "conservative" or "liberal" since most people's views vary depending upon the subject.  For instance I have many views that most would call liberal and I also have many other views that most would call conservative.  I think this applies to most all of us, but at the same time I don't think one should confuse this with being moderate.  People tend to be rather opinionated, even if their convictions are well distributed, so I'd hesitate to call most people moderate.  It's the subjects that we are less opinionated on in which we hold some moderation.  But it's my opinion that we're all a little too far left and too far right.  Usually people who are strongly opinionated seem less content than those who's opinions are born more from logic than emotions.

     As far as censorship is concerned I'm for less of it.  I think the government is already breaching our Bill of Rights as it is, and there ought to be more responsibility and trust put in the nation's people.  As for television in particular, I believe that worrying about "crude" language, violent acts, and sexuality on television just goes to show how pampered, meek, and overly-sensitive our culture has become.  During the civil war boys as young as thirteen fought in bloody battles,  and before we had the luxury and convienience of modern life people, including children, were much more regularly and intensly exposed to the bare realities of life, which violence and sex are just an inherent and natural part of.

Picture of Andrew Conlon
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Andrew Conlon - Tuesday, April 15, 2008, 01:12 AM
I agree with nearly everything that has been expressed and feel like we all have similar ideals. Jeremy articulated well on how I feel about spectrums and I agree that sometimes emotions bounce people like a rubber band too far in one direction. I am guilty of feeling that way too sometimes when presented with an extreme example of conservative censorship like in the video, but that doesn't mean communism is the answer. Single issues sometimes are of too much importance to individuals, and you see them swing one way or the other. For example, people who want to own guns suddenly get scared that those rights will be taken away, so they respond by becoming crazy radicals and disregard other issues of freedom.
My grudge with politics has always been that there are too many issue's to try and cram into two parties of "liberal" or "conservative," or the donkey and the elephant. Is it practical to decide who our leaders are going to be, or what side of the spectrum we support by tossing pebbles on the old weight scale and going with which way it tilts. This might be why America is so apathetic, no one is fairly represented; that and voting for politicians seems to be such a superficial affair. The latter is only true if you don't vote for Oprah's candidate because I watch her show everyday. big grin

The bill of rights was mentioned, and I didn't really feel I understood how they were being broken so I investigated the manner. There are some interesting things I discovered but to stay on topic, I will just discuss the first amendment regarding the freedom of speech. It was not fully defined by its writers which has caused many interpretations. We were intended to have the right to freedom of expression but that is not the case. Ever since that amendment was ratified it has been challenged like was the case with the play in the video on censorship. Totally free expression seems pretty impractical, there has to be some boundaries, like yelling fire in a crowded venue causing chaos and injury, or child pornography. The federal government realized this and had to add some restrictions like perjury, defamation, or copyright infringement. There have been famous cases that have helped define the amendment like the case Brandenburg v. Ohio. In 1969 a KKK member used television media to promote direct acts of racist violence, causing a new interpretation that stated speech could be restricted if "likely to incite imminent lawless action." (section 2 on restriction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech)
This interpretation is fine with me but the government has gone too far. How has it been taken to the point where it is illegal to use profanity or how obscenity is defined with regards to restriction of speech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obscenity).

I think this would be a good discussion to carry on as obscenity pertains to the same form of censorship, as was shown in the 1900 video. End Rant.
Picture of Johnny Rodriguez
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Johnny Rodriguez - Tuesday, April 15, 2008, 05:30 PM
first of all.. just wanted to say that this is my first history class in my entire life and most of my life, history hasn't been a big part of my life. as joe would say, im ignorant to a lot of history and facts and all that great stuff. i grew up in a city were the school weren't as good as the ones in oregon. anyways, after reading the article, the topic of terror management, concerns and fear and threat is so true because history tells it that once a person is threaten and feared by that person, the next thing they would want to do is defend themselves. but the messed up part about that is that once they see another person of the same ethnicity, that same person would think that he/she would be harmful to him/her and would run the other direction. you see that happening all the time. it happen to me once i came to oregon. the first time i met a person, they ask me where i came from. i told them i came from compton california, that person quickly ran away from me because he got scared that i would hurt him. there are many people that think that equality should not be given to inferior people. some people don't like change and would pay big money to stay the same way. its just old traits passed down form generation to generation. conservatives have a hard time believing that going to war will solve all the problems. conservatives have a hard time discussing the issues we have here in the U.S. Like G.W. Bush, enough is said with that guy. he just need to step down and say he suck as a president. change needs to happen so that the future could have a better future rather then a screwed up one.
Picture of Jared Miller
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Jared Miller - Wednesday, April 16, 2008, 10:15 PM

First off I would like to point out that we or look back to the Victorian Era and commenting back on a time when men where aloud to masturbate women to orgasm as a cure for hysteria and women how show their ankles were considered loose. The then the spectrum of that time period would have been considered liberal for the majority of Americans.

Picture of Trenna Wilson
Defining Conservativism
by Trenna Wilson - Friday, April 18, 2008, 05:28 PM
Like some, I'm still having trouble with the video. The Defining Conservativism article alone, however, raises a lot of interesting questions.

I'm left of center on the liberal-conservative spectrum. I'm also annoyed by *anybody's* presentation of "information" in a mass of attention-seeking inflammatory rhetoric so it was difficult to take this article seriously at all, but I'll try smile.

The article presents itself as scholarly, though it is is more editorial. This alone tells me it can't really "define" conservatism accurately. The described methodology of the "meta-analysis" has few safety mechanisms agains bias. But -- perhaps because the conclusions our gut instincts about conservativism -- it's easy to fail to question the method.

The title is also misleading -- the "study" is about understanding conservativism, and conservative thought. Explaining a phenomena is different from defining a phenomena ("I feel cold because the wind is blowing" is not "cold = wind, wind is cold"). Even if it is true that conservative people might tend to need closure, this does not reliably define conservatism as a need for closure.

Since we, and this article, tend to use Republicanism to define Conservatism, we should consider a current trend in the US Republican Party: striving to define oneself as "fiscally conservative" as opposed to "morally conservative" or "religiously conservative." Many people who are conservative in being opposed to taxes, opposed to a powerful central government, and hesitant to argue that the solution to the healthcare crisis is providing it from the federal government are not necessarily people who oppose gay marriage, abortion, affirmative action, and other "liberal" issues. It's also pretty darn clear that moral conservatives such as the Reagan-Bush-Cheney administrations haven't been opposed to big government.

Back to the article: If it is the case that everybody shifts more toward the conservative end of the spectrum when threatened or at war, I can't see why it is accurate to say that the post - 9/11 fear of foreigners or dissent is an example of the *normal* state of *conservatism*, rather than a *conservative* shift as is *normal* in such circumstances.

Also the sentence: "The latest debate about the possibility that the Bush administration ignored intelligence information ... may be linked to the conservative intolerance for ambiguity" is flat-out silly. A debate about a possibility is not evidence of anything, except a debate about a possibility. Referring to it in this way looks more like a far-left attempt at propaganda: pushing the reader to accept as fact something that is questionable, by making it the evidence in the main argument.

So, since that conclusion was supported by a debate about a possibility, I'd say it cannot be a source of accurate anything about conservativism. It is more a statement about how much the liberal audience loves anything negative about Bush: we don't even ask for decent rhetoric anymore.

I despise Bush as a president, I cried when he was re-elected. But using a supposed scholarly study of conservative thought to (re)publish half-hearted gossip about the current administration is a little lazy.

It also seems less than accurate that the conservatives are more tolerant of inequality than the liberals. Recall the examples of Progressive movements being chauvinistic in their own WASP-y ways: undervaluing diverse cultures in "help the underprivileged of the world" (give them Bibles, teach them English,"improve" their agriculture by teaching them to yield more dollars per acre (but not more nutrients per person per acre)).

What little the article reliably reports about conservatism is stuff that could be found in the dictionary definition of conservative. The rest is questionable both in context of the "study" and in reference to other information about conservatives and liberals.

As an aside: It's not just inaccurate, but deplorable and ignorant to equate the Hindu caste system with apartheid. The complex religious belief system of dharma, karma, and reincarnation is different from government-sanctioned inequality. It goes against my grain too, but I get that this is because of *my* ideals of egalitarianism and the American Dream -- not because the caste system is like aparteid. It's a poor reference here too, because India is the only example I've ever seen whose constitution -- at its inception -- outlawed basic tenets of its most popular religion. Hardly conservative.
Picture of Amy Austin
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Amy Austin - Monday, April 21, 2008, 01:28 PM

I have not been able to watch the videos that go along with this discussion, but after reading over the discussion I have an idea of what the censorship video is about.

I see myself in the middle of the spectrum.  Because politics are not a major interest of mine, I think I find it pretty easy to look at ideas presented to me and make opinions that vary over the different parties.  I feel like I can often see both sides of an arguement, making it difficult to pick a side or shoose what is necessarily "right."

On the issue of conservatism and censorship I can see why conservatives would desire keeping things how they are now or even how they used to be.  Change can often be an uncomfortable thing and it is something that no one has control over.  However, it is a natural thing and I am thankful for that because without it we would still be living like cavemen. I think conservatives fear this natural on many level, one of which being people's sef expression.  People have become a lot more open about self expression and as a result, people are getting more and more offended by what is being said and done.  So is it the government's job to control what can be said and done?  Should people be allowed to say and do whatever they want and others just learn to accept it?  Where is the line and when does it get crossed?  I have no absolute answers to these questions, but in my opinion I find myself leaning towards total free speech.  That is one thing America boasts and to start setting restrictions and cutting people off in their opinions just seems to contradict that.  A lot of times people do espress themselves in ways that are seen as culturally inappropriate, but I think that that is one of the things that encourages them to do so.  Knowing it is in appropriate guarantees a response to it.  If people just accepted all forms of expression and didn't make a fuss about them, then maybe those inappropriate forms would lessen as a result.

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Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Trenna Wilson - Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 06:52 PM
> I find myself leaning towards total free speech.

When you say that, do you mean you'd like to see recent restrictions on free speech lifted (such as war images that aren't allowed now but were allowed in previous wars), so that we meet Constitutional standards more completely?

Or do you mean you'd like to see a lift of the restrictions on free speech that have always been part of our Constitution (off the top of my head, examples being shouting "fire" in a crowded building, libel, and slander)?
Picture of Amy Austin
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Amy Austin - Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 08:46 PM

I definitely would like to see the recent restrictions that you mentioned lifted.  I feel like the media shouldn't get to shape and mold the images and ideas they are feeding to us; we should get the straight forwards truths. However, I do realize many of the images (like the ones we have been viewing in class about war bonds and victory gardens, etc) are opinions as well.  The freedom I would like to see is more along the lines of the true images of battle and war that we have seen from WWI.  They are so much more powerful and bring into homes the intensity and emotions we are not feeling now because the war is NOT in our backyard and we are NOT losing as great of numbers as we have in previous wars.  I think those images would bring a seriousness to the situation that is not totally there now.

As for restrictions that have always been a part of the Constitution, they are moral and ethical restrictions.  In no way do I feel that those restrictions should be completely lifted or ignored.  But I see a big difference slander and shouting "fire" in a crowded builing.  While slander is meant to hurt pride, shouting "fire" is meant to cause panic and an immediate reaction.  To me slander is less of a big deal than shouting "fire" because people could simply choose to ignore it, so I feel allowing more free speech in that respect wouldn't hurt.  But I definitely can see how slander in many situations could also require a response (eg. if serious lies were being spread about a presidential candidate and they needed to be cleared up to give said candidate a fair chance at running).

Picture of Trenna Wilson
Videos on Censorship
by Trenna Wilson - Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 07:15 PM
Watching all three videos at once, it is interesting to see what did and did not change from the early 1900s to the 1980s.

Very humorous was that with both the prosecution of the leading female actor in Sapho and the PMRC hearings, the end result was better publicity and better sales of the "obscene" products: Sapho was more successful after the lead's arrest & release than it was before, because of the press involved. And, as one of the heavy metal performers said, a parental warning that an album contained explicit lyrics was "a guarantee [it] would be bought by disgruntled kids." And another repeated: "PMRC was the best thing to happen to metal." Perhaps a slam from the public for decency is appealing for all people who feel marginalized in some way.

The big difference that appeared over time was, as put in the second video, the government making steps to get out of the business of legislating morality (in that case, by changing the wording of the Mann act from targeting "debauchery" to "criminal sex acts"). I for one am relieved to see a downward trend in legislating moralty both for pragmatic reasons (they're a waste of legal resources and often unenforceable), and for the purpose of religious freedom and separation of church & state (some of my Jewish practices would be difficult under laws that existed until very recently, based on Christian morals).

On the question of censorship and conservatism, these clips did have some examples on both sides (they're hand in hand, and they're not necessarily related). With the production of Sapho, the objection was to images of female sexuality that were different from the currently accepted norm. Censorship in that case worked against change. With the original Mann act, conservatism was apparent in the fact that the key prosecutions under the act were against a black man having a consensual relationship with a white woman and against a foreigner. If it is the case that it was inspired by many unrests that came the change of women moving to cities and supporting themselves with secretarial skills, perhaps it is conservative. On the other hand, if it had less to do with the change in women supporting themselves and more with a natural response to an increase in people being forced into prostitution, it might not be conservative.

It's also important to note that Tipper Gore was the main face at the PMRC table, at least in this clip. I don't see the PMRC being motivated by conservative ideals, although the heavy metal artists mentioned their work was a reaction to conservatism. If conservative acts are marked by attempting to avoid change, I think the PMRC would have asked for more drastic measures such as not selling metal records to people under a certain age, or only allowing them to be sold in adult "bookstores." Instead, the push to just label the albums was presented as, and ended up being, a pro-consumer movement (like labeling fat content on a food label). So people who cared and wanted to avoid it could, while no attempt was made to block sales or production.
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Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Vanessa Lidecker - Tuesday, April 22, 2008, 11:27 PM

I consider myself to be more towards the right side of the spectrum. I like the views, but I don’t always agree with the choices that are made. I happen to like change, but only when it’s needed. This article gave me the impression that being conservative is not something that is good. It’s true that the core of conservatism is the resistance to change, but that’s not true for all of us. I also agree that during times of crisis, people tend to become more right-wing than left-wing.

The article was inaccurate in the fact that most conservatives are intolerant of different things, and that leads them to arrive at premature conclusions. I think that that can only be said for the far, far, far right conservatives; not all of us.

The censorship videos were extremely interesting. When the play “Sapho” came out, some people were outraged. Things began to be censored left and right: 19,000 dirty pictures were confiscated, and close to 17,000 dirty poems, stories and other things were found. Even the actress who played Sapho was reprimanded. She had to go to trial and everything; but that didn’t stop the peoples’ interests. The government did all they could to censor things, and it didn’t work. In fact, uncensored shows became more popular.
This was especially right in the 1980’s when the government tried to censor heavy metal. Groups like the P.M.R.C (lead by a democratic senator’s wife) tried to put an end to explicit lyrics in the songs; the republicans felt they were obligated for the country to retain moral sanity. Dee Snyder and Tipper Gore fought it out. They eventually reached a compromise: a warning label would be put on the albums that had “dirty” or explicit lyrics. While this was meant to be a slap in the face to Heavy metal groups, it actually backfired on the people who were trying to censor them. The warning label was a guaranteed sale factor.

In both of these examples, censorship was something that was meant to be a “help,” but it quickly became a marketing factor that brought more and more people in to watch. It seemed that conservatism was slipping through the cracks.

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Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Brittney Winn - Wednesday, April 23, 2008, 01:22 PM

Like a lot of other people, I can't get the video to download either, but after reading everybody elses posts, I think that I pretty much get the gist of what's going on.... So that being said, I think that censorship is somewhat necessary in moderation. I can understand radio stations that are considered "family oriented" blanking out swear words when they know that kids are going to be listening. Or putting ratings on movies and video games, so people know what age range they are appropriate for. But of course these are all just guidelines. It really comes down to what people find appropriate for their kids, or themselves. I also agree with Vanessa's post about how sometimes lableing things, or making them seem "taboo" I guess you can say, just up the interest factor, and more people are going to want to listen to the C.D. with the Explicit lyric sticker on it, or see the R rated movie. But when it comes to the important things, like censoring the news, I don't agree that censorship is a fair way to let us know what's going on in our country and in our world. Censorship of language and sexual content is one thing, but censorship of facts, and trying to keep people in the dark about things is not okay...

Picture of Christopher Settelmeyer
Re: HTDF Topic #1
by Christopher Settelmeyer - Wednesday, April 23, 2008, 01:24 PM
I feel that censorship should be in the hands of individuals to decide what they wish to see and avoid exposing themselves or their children to. I feel that the internet has provided us with the tool that we can present a mass of people anything they want to access, the freedom of choice is awarded to us. I feel that government should monitor certain threats to national security such as terrorist groups or individuals who may prey on our young. This censorship may lead government to impose on our rights we must find the balance of government intervention to protect freedom and their intervention on our personal freedom.
We have as a nation come a long way in regards freedom of public expression as the video clip about censorship at the turn of the 1900's suggests to us and by what is available on video or live entertainment of today.
As far as censoring hate crimes and broadcasting messages of hatred from one group to another that must be censored. I know that it is idealistic but this should be a country that people are free to bring their own customs and religious practices to and feel safe doing so. Anyone who threatens the freedoms of others must be censored.